# Are Strretcars "High Technology" Products? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552 "2004-12-18T19:26:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Melandry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Melandry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melandry)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/21 "2004-12-20T04:52:00Z")
Forgot to make this clear: ‘Kinki’ is a Japanese company, so I think that’s what he was thinking of. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/22 "2004-12-20T07:38:39Z")
Regarding the design of trolly cars. Why couldn’t you just take a modern electric bus (“trackless trolley”) and fit them with tracked wheels? It wouldn’t take a lot of work to mofify such a vehicle to run on rails. Anyway, does anybody know of Beretta will wind up sueing the MBTA? I have a feeling that suits and countersuits will flow like water from now on! Of course, I’m sure that the MBTA had some kind of performance clause in the purchase contract…but who knows. It’s just sad that we (apparently) can’t make something as simple as a sreetcar, in this country anymore! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/23 "2004-12-20T08:02:38Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Regarding the design of trolly cars. Why couldn’t you just take a modern electric bus (“trackless trolley”) and fit them with tracked wheels? It wouldn’t take a lot of work to mofify such a vehicle to run on rails. You’d need a whole new chassis - trams are generally set up like trains, with wheels mounted on bogies, rather than the four-wheel layout of road vehicles. There’s little of the bus that would remain. Plus, I imagine the power and control system would need to be completely different, to cope with a very different running surface. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/24 "2004-12-20T23:58:12Z")
BTW, from this link – [http://www.lightrail.com/LRTSystems.htm](http://www.lightrail.com/LRTSystems.htm) – here’s a list of current streetcar vehicle manufacturers: > [@](#): > > BM – Bombardier > > BO - Boeing > > BR – Breda > > CF - CAF > > GO - Gomaco Trolley > > KW - Kawasaki > > KI – Kinki-Sharyo > > NS – Nippon-Sharyo > > PC - PCC > > SD – Siemens–Duewag > > SK – Skoda Streetcar > > STS – Siemens Transportation Systems > > UT – UTDC On the same page is a list of all light rail or streetcar systems currently operating, under construction or proposed in North America. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/25 "2004-12-21T21:14:00Z")
> [@Ignatz](#): > > I wonder how SF could upgrade them and still make them disability-accessible. They had 3 steps to a “high” floor. We do it the old fashioned, never gonna break way - ramps. I believe all of the F Line (where the historic cars are used) stops all have wheelchair ramps, and the operator just grabs a plate and lays it between ramp and the car’s floor so the wheelchair rolls right on. > [@ralph124c](#): > > the cars derail at 10 times the frequency of the old Boeing-Vertol cars now in use Both San Francisco and Boston were “special cases” in the streetcar world, for which the Vertol cars were designed - The primary issues are tight clearances and tight curves. Unlike most streetcars, the Vertols are relatively short and narrow, and are articulated. As a comparison, the Peter Witt (IIRC, designed in Cincinatti or thereabouts - easily recognized in their orange livery) cars we got from Milan not long ago are longer and wider than PCC cars, and, like the PCCs, don’t bend. I wonder if Beretta goofed and failed to take turn radius into consideration? Or Boston forgot to tell them about this? I’ll leave that to the lawyers. We fairly recently got the last Vertol off the rails, so our “Metro” lines fleet (the J, K, L, M and N subway lines) are 100% Breda cars. And yes, there were all sorts of problems with the Bredas at first also. Once they got ironed out, the subway control system was replaced with al Alcatel system that was utterly horrid. In the first few days, it broke so often, stopping trains in tunnels that passengers would often pull the emergency door releases and walk through the tunnels to the next station. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/26 "2004-12-22T00:09:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Both San Francisco and Boston were “special cases” in the streetcar world, for which the Vertol cars were designed - The primary issues are tight clearances and tight curves. Are we essentially talking about trying to make modern technology fit into an outdated infrastructure? (Hey, I know London well enough to know what it’s like…) > [@](#): > > Unlike most streetcars, the Vertols are relatively short and narrow, and are articulated. As a comparison, the Peter Witt (IIRC, designed in Cincinatti or thereabouts - easily recognized in their orange livery) cars we got from Milan not long ago are longer and wider than PCC cars, and, like the PCCs, don’t bend. > > I wonder if Beretta goofed and failed to take turn radius into consideration? Or Boston forgot to tell them about this? I’ll leave that to the lawyers. I don’t recall any radius in Boston that the Manchester trams couldn’t have dealt with, albeit slower. Are there any figures for the absolute minimum radius needed on these systems? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/27 "2004-12-22T00:42:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > when the electric buses first entered service they were faster than any cars of their day (1933). It wasn’t until the Oldsmobile “rocket V8” that a car could outrun one. Hmmm. I know a guy with a 1926 car (admittedly, a fancy one) that could & can do 140 mph. Could your electric bus top that? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/28 "2004-12-22T01:39:16Z")
I think that **Magiver** is reffering to the rate of acelleration not top speed. Electric motors will produce 100% of their rate torque at 0RPM. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/29 "2004-12-22T02:46:55Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > I think that **Magiver** is reffering to the rate of acelleration not top speed. Electric motors will produce 100% of their rate torque at 0RPM. OTOH, buses have a lot of mass to get moving. I’d like to hear more about this super electric bus. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/30 "2004-12-22T03:45:57Z")
I think ralph got the name wrong in the OP; the new Boston streetcars are Type-8’s made by Breda. I saw these cars parked in the yard out at Riverside for at least a year before I ever saw one in service, and a web search shows they’ve been trying to make these things work for about 3 years already. And considering the local track record for managing large public projects, particularly those involving transportation, my first thought is NOT to blame the makers of the streetcars. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552/31 "2004-12-22T21:08:46Z")
> [@Robot Arm](#): > > the new Boston streetcars are Type-8’s made by Breda … they’ve been trying to make these things work for about 3 years already … > > And considering the local track record for managing large public projects, particularly those involving transportation, my first thought is NOT to blame the makers of the streetcars. Guess Breda’s West Coast division didn’t tell the East Coast folks what had to be done to make the things work in SF so they’d be ready to roll in Boston? Actually, it looks like we’re using Breda’s LRV-2 and the Type-8 is a different item altogether. I did some reading, and it looks like the transit consultant Booz Allen Hamilton got us into the mess by recommending Breda and Alcatel, even though neither company had a proven product. Cushy deal for Booz - they get paid based on the amount of work needed to get things done, so if it takes another year to make something work, they get paid for another year’s time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-strretcars-high-technology-products/280552.md?page=1)