Are Tanks Obsolete Weapons?

As it happens, this week’s Economist has an article on Land Warfare. The caption reads, “Will future wars be fought and won entirely from the air? It is unlikely, but new technologies are revolutionising thinking about armoured warfare.”

Unfortunately, The Economist’s website is subscriber-only, so you can’t link to it.

I’ll try to summarize a few of their points. (Full disclosure: I have no military experience and minimal knowledge of defense issues.)

  1. The biggest current drawback of state-of-the-art heavy tanks “…is the difficulty of transporting them, and the ‘iron mountain’ of spare parts and logistics needed to keep them going, to remote battlefields at short notice.” Apparently some think the force mix should shift to more mobile forces, assuming the DS/DS scenerio is a, “diminishing threat”. Current armor is designed for a cold war situation where the place of battle is known in advance.
  2. Chris Bellamy maintains that no armor will be able to defend against yet-to-be-built electro-magnetic firing systems or lasers. The only defensive options would be evasion or pre-emptive attack. Slow moving armor would thus be at a disadvantage.
    David Ochmanek of Rand figures that, “The enemy’s army should be largely destroyed before we get to the ground.” (The quote by the Iraqi commander might be one response to that comment.)

Good points flowbark, but you’re missing the larger picture:

Armor combines mobility, firepower and armor protection to maneuver a unit quickly into a position to overwhelm an enemy’s defenses, or to withstand an enemy’s attack.

Whether it’s light, air deployable armor or heavy Main Battle Tanks (predominantly our current crop) is irrelevant.

There’s a limit to the amount of “stuff” that an air-deployed infantryman can carry; and the trucks forming the logistical lifeline of heavier ordinance (anti-tank and anti-aircraft missile, for instance) is almost as vulnerable as the soldiers themselves.

There has to be some form of support for the man on the ground.

Aircraft are certainly capable of delivering tremendous amounts of devastation fairly accurately, but have limited “battlefield linger” capabilities, require nearly as much logistical support (more is some areas, less in others; it kinda evens out), are signifigantly more fragile, and are completely helpless on the ground.

Armor can co-locate with whatever force they are supporting/leading, shut down for the night, pull over to the side of the road, or pull into a gas station and top off with either diesel, unleaded or regular (although a tank battalion would suck dry the local gas station PDQ).

Technological developments such as fire-and-forget self-homing missiles, laser weaponry, particle weaponry, and directed electromagnetic pulse devices are still some time away from battlefield deployment (I think the hangup with energetic weapons systems is power generation/delivery).

But for every new and improved tank killer yet devised, there has eventually been a new and improved tank to withstand them. Why?

Because having a thick chunk of steel to hide behind while cruising into the middle of the fray at 45kmh to blow the bejeevus out of the enemy with really big guns is useful

So no: armor, is not obsolete, and probaly won’t be for a long time, if ever. Just going through a natural evolution. Adapting to perceived/forecasted strategic imperitives and tactical scenarios.

The only thing that I can see rendering armor (and ground forces in general, as well) obsolete is the development of extremely accurate space-based energetic weapons systems (think of the SOL-1 from the Japanese anime Akira). That’s presupposing that only one side/nation/interest has such capability, too.

Then again, the counter-development of “Anti-Orbital Defenses” may nullify the advantage of our fictional SOL-1, thus putting the ball back into the court of the ground/air forces. Troops, tanks, and artillery and aviation.

ExTank
“Mostly Harmless :p”

I’ll agree with you under certain circumstances. For example, Should China build a 2 million dollar tank with a 5 man crew or should they build 100 jeeps each with a 5 man crew and assorted light weapons. Since they have less money and more people and can tolerate higher troop fatilities the jeeps would probably be a better idea.

In modern USA troop loses are NOT acceptable, The public won’t back any military action with significant troop loses. But the US public will tolerate high defense spending. (see pending Bush presidency)

Perhaps, perhaps not. Will 100 jeeps with light weapons be able to complete the mission ? You can easily think out scenarios where they don’t stand a chance - artillery & HMG fire can chew them up, unless they keep moving. You can’t hit shit from a moving jeep. A jeep-killing mine is one tenth the size of a tank-killing one (and one tenth the price - meaning your enemy can buy more. And one tenth the weight - meaning that enemy soldiers can carry more).

If money is a problem and casualties are not, you might want to change your force composition towards more jeeps and fewer tanks - or a heap of slightly inferior tanks. If you could get your engineers thinking along the lines of: “How much trouble can we cause for 1 million dollars ?”, interesting things might result.

ExTank writes:

Some questions.
a) Does this mean you took one on the chin in Desert Storm?
b) How long were your ears ringing?
c) What happened to the offending T-72?
d) Was there lingering damage to your tank? (e.g. turret immobilized, IR disabled, etc.)

A) No. One tank in our company (D-33) did, though. Closest I came was a bracketed artillery barrage that we narrowly escaped from, and counter-battery supposedly put paid to them guys.

B) About a day, according to the crew, along with a nasty headache.

C) They lived to regret their actions. But not for long. The rest of third platoon did not take it kindly that one of theirs had been hit.

D) Popped some turret circuit breakers (easily reset), knocked the electronic sights out of alignment (but not the optical, strangely enough), left a small hole in a dimpled depression about the size of a large dinner platter in the frontal armor and chipped some paint.

The electronic sights were re-calibrated in about 30 minutes, after return to the rear. Blue-3 (D-33) continued the engagement, rattled but alive.

Top armor is very thin on a tank, just about any tank. Artillery can ruin your day if the observer is on the ball.

Our battalion was conducting a reconnaisance-in-force across “the berm” on April 24, 1991. We were deployed as a battalion wedge, a ^ shape so to speak. Our company was on the battalion right, with third platoon anchoring our company right (meaning they were at the far-right end of the line).

Recon elements encountered EPWs, called it in and withdrew to the battalion center, and we advanced to make contact.

Our point elements, a mechanized infantry company in Bradleys, ran smack into the flank guard elements, employing 100mm towed AT Guns, of a Rep. Guard Tank Division, and we lost a Bradley (two KIA) and a medic track (two more KIA) before we withdrew.

Us (D Co.) and B Co. engaged the gun positions, and took them out, while our third platoon reported movement, then contact, to their right oblique (the bear was awake), when we heard over the radio “Blue 3’s been hit!” over and over.

At this point, it should be poited out that we didn’t know yet exactly what we had run into. The rest of third platoon (“Blue”) engaged madly and began calling in reports of dozens of enemy tanks.

The battalion wheeled in place and retreated (a Task Force Battalion is a little light in the shorts to take on an entire division, even with two tank companies) in good order south of the berm, and the Iraqis didn’t pursue.

It was during that 5-10 minutes of confusion that we (our tank) began taking indirect fire. Our tank (D-50) was stationary and overwatching our medics advance on D-33 to see what was what when we had an artillery shell drop about 100m directly to our frontal. About a minute later, another dropped about 100m directly to our rear.

In military circles, that’s called a “bracket” and the next salvo (usually an all-gun fire-for-effect) splits the difference. Exactly where we were sitting.

Our driver, “Bubba”, had aspirations to enter our tank into a NASCAR event, at least judging by the way he drove out of that fire zone.

A minute later, an entire battery salvo dropped where we had been sitting.

Artillery is nasty. But it is an area-affect weapon, not a point-effect weapon (the difference between a rifle and a hand grenade), not counting special rounds like Copperhead.

But still…close enough is close enough.

And that’s about as, interesting, as DS/DS got for me.

Except for the Apache that dusted Sgt. Mac while he was taking a dump, butt-cheeks exposed, in the middle of nowhere.

Damned aviators. Sick bastards. You’d think that with an enemy tank division in front of them, they’d have better things to do with their time than harrass a man while he’s relieving hisself.

Then again, you’d also think that Sgt. Mac had better things to do with his time than worry about regularity in the middle of a battle (although we weren’t currently engaged). Must’ve been that MRE “Sanka” coffee, or maybe he made the mistake of chewing some of that MRE gum(I swear to God Almighty and his Son Jeebus that that gum is really Ex-Lax!)

Sgt. Mac was complaining months later back at Ft. Hood that he still had sand in places the sun don’t shine.

Great stories, ExTank. It’s so fascinating I can’t resist some follow up, I hope you don’t mind.

Do they really have that radar-tracking counter-battery thing Tom Clancy always uses? I.e. radar tracks the arc of the incoming shells and locates to within 5 millimeters the source and everyone shoots? I take it that the one barrage (where you had just been) was the only one you had to deal with?

And why do you think they were aiming at you instead of the apparently disabled D-33 + medics (Bradley?) I guess maybe it would be hard for the spotter to know which tank was ‘damaged’ if you were both stationary, but I guess it was lucky for D-33 that you guys were drawing fire.

Did the medics have to assist D-33, or did they shake it off and get rolling when they realized they were a) alive and b) in a fire zone?

Was that a through hole, like you could see daylight?
Do you know what kind of reduced protection that damage indicates? Do you think they could have taken another 125mm in the same general spot? I doubt anyone would have let them back in the mix if it was a big danger, so it sounds like those Abrams are tough SOBs.

I’m sorry to hear that. Was there just two in each, or were some folks rescued? I’d imagine if a Bradly got hit with a 100 mm AT round it’d be pretty much game over. My condolences (nearly 10 years late) to the families of those who gave their lives.

Douglips:

Yes they really have the counter-battery radar. I don’t know how precise it is, but it will track artillery shell(s) in flight, compute their origin, calculate an artillery firing solution and download it directly into the fire-control computer of the guns tasked with counter-battery fire.

At a touch of a few buttons and loading the proper charge, the gun battery (6 Howitzers, usually 155mm M109A3 or later series) can return fire. The whole process, as described to me by a FISTer (FIre Support Team) takes less than a minute.

I can only guess as to the logic of the enemy fire-spotter, but our company commander was in “the line” with the other platoons, and therby indistinguishible from any other tank, whereas we were slightly behind the main body of our company, about 500m (and a cheery thank you, Captain Sir, for volunteering me and my crew’s collective asses to be the world’s most expensive duck lure :rolleyes: ).

Our unit was one of two firing up the towed AT guns, so the spotter may have assumed that we were one of the command tracks calling the shots, and called fire to rattle/destroy us (we were outside the effective range of the AT guns).

D-33’s crew assessed the situation fairly quickly (about 30-60 sec.), reset the Commo circuit breaker, and called in as being AOK. The medics , in a M113, about-faced and withdrew. Being as they were fairly close to the line and saw a hefty portion of a Rep. Gds. Regiment (a sub-unit of the Division in front of us) maneuvering to engage, I can hardly blame them.

The hole was only about 8in. deep; not a through-hole penetration, else D-33’s crew would’ve fared much worse from the spalling, white-hot chunks of armor blasted loose from the inner-turret wall at the site of penetration to zip about the turret, generally to the terminal detriment of the crew.

The turret probably could’ve taken another hit to the same turret facet, as long as it wasn’t too close (less than a foot-and-a-half or so) to the original impact. According to out BMO (Battalion Maintenance Officer).

The Bradley had just dropped their rear troop-ramp to dismount their infantry squad when the round struck. The driver and gunner were killed instantly, the BC (Bradley Commander) was burned pretty badly and thrown clear, and the infantry squad was wounded to a man by flying chunks of exploding Bradley.

The medics had just dismounted (under fire) when their track (an M113) was also hit from the same gun position, killing the driver and commander. But the medics (God Bless those guys) advanced on the wounded infantry, performed first aid under fire, and loaded them up and carried them back in another vehicle before returning to their own burning vehicle to try and rescue their crewmates. They had to be physically restrained and dragged away, as we were retreating in the face of a grossly superior force.

But two M88 recovery vehicle hitched tow cables to the burning vehicles and dragged them back, their crews sustaining 1st and 2nd degree burns doing so.

Everyone came home. One way or another.

Both the medics received Bronze Stars with Valor devices, and the crews of the recovery vehicles received Army Commendation Medals and Purple Hearts.
[Boring Military Analysis stuff]

The engagement, depending upon who’s after-action review you listened to, either validated or invalidated the mixed force Task Force concept.

If it had been an infantry/cavalry pure unit (Bradleys only), casualties could have conceivably been much higher. It was determined that the presence of two tank companies (28 tanks) suppressed the AT gun positions, allowing on orderly withdrawal, and discouraged pursuit by the Rep. Gds. units.

However, if it had been a tank-pure unit, then we could’ve seriously bloodied the nose of a (still) numerically superior force, possibly combat ineffecting them (casualties/losses too high to be a viable combat unit).

But tank-pure units don’t conduct reconnaisance-in-force in the U.S. Army, that role being reserved to the cavalry, who’s intent is to locate and estimate the enemy, and communicate that data to higher, preferably w/o even being seen. If seen, retreat before being engaged; if engaged, retreat before being decisively engaged.

But it wasn’t our unit’s (1st Cavalry Division) task to decisively engage the enemy; it was to engage, inflict casualties, and withdraw before becoming decisively engaged. We were supposed to convince Saddam and his generals that Gen. Schwarzkopf was going to launch his offensive right up the Wadi al Batin, through the Neutral Zone, straight for Basrah.

We were screening the movement of 7th Corps to our rear, as they moved westward along the Tap Line Road, to get set for the “Hail Mary”.

In other words, for the first time since Vietnam, the 1st Cavalry Division was once again Cavalry in more than just their name.

“Scouts Out!”

Couple of Questions:

Has anyone ever heard of the BAT (Brilliant Anti-Tank) missile? It is (or so I’m told) a weapon which is designed to be fired high over the battlefield and deploy microphones which cross-index engine sounds and radar signatures to a database of friendly and hostile units, then fire off independent submunitions targeted at ID’d hostiles.

Is this a real weapon in use? I heard about it several years ago.

I think they’re a follow on to the AGM-154A Joint Standoff Weapon [JSOW] platform. The Brilliant Anti-Tank submunition is supposed to be a deep-strike weapon, the Navy is looking at it for use on the Tomahawk SLCM, allowing the ship to interdict an armored column without exposing pilots to the AAA that normally accompanies armor on the move. Although I haven’t found any info on the operational designation of the BAT, perhaps some of the active duty posters could fill us in.

It seems that tanks are really best not in the field in war, but as the Eastern Bloc used them, to show military presence in cities.

Therefore, it would make sense to produce lighter and narrower tanks, so we could go into towns in Kosovo or Kuwait and stake out a claim.

Ten humvees wouldn’t look like anything parked in the town square, but one tank would.

I believe a lot of the Russian tank crews that entered Grosnyj city would disagree on tanks being good for showing military presence in cities - if they were able to express an opinion, that is.

Tanks get murdered in built-up areas - no room to maneuver, lots of places for infantry to hide, lots of positions where man-portable anti-armour weaponry can get a shot at top or rear armour. BAD idea. (Oh, you bring a couple along to give that nice massive firepower and make holes in walls, but in cities it’s the infantry protecting the tank more than the other way 'round).

If you want to “display military presence”, get yourself a couple of APCs/IFVs and some guys on the ground. The vehicles are grenade-proof and carry the sort of weapons that discourage snipers, the guys on the ground can keep a better lookout than a tank crew.

S. Norman (ex-Infantry)

With the advances in drone technology I fear that the mighty MBT-actually, most AFVs-could rapidly be nearing obsolescence. Drones are more affordable, easier to deploy, are much lower maintenance, and can deploy tank busting weapons at very long ranges. Despite AA capabilities fielded by mech and armor units it is possible a drone “swarm” could defeat them. If you shoot down some relatively cheap drones who cares? There are always more. Perhaps mothballing (Don’t get rid of them!) most of our MBTs isn’t such a bad idea.

In nuclear war, don’t count on your electronics to work. Brute fighting machines are what’s going to slog it out in a nuclear battlefield.

You actually have to know that these are in fact tanks, and not a blow up construction that would mislead a nato pilot, say like over serbia.

Declan

You also have to make sure the tanks are not crewed by zombies.

Three things:

  1. There’s an awful lot of electronics in a modern MBT.

  2. National governments aren’t going to survive a nuclear war in any meaningful way, so what’s going to be able to slog it out post nuclear exchange is a rather moot point.

  3. Tanks would make excellent weapons against zombies, no matter what the authors of World War Z and The Walking Dead and whatnot seem to think. You’re in an 80 ton fully sealed tracked armored vehicle with a 1,500hp engine. If you can’t figure out from that sentence how to kill zombies with your tank, you deserve to get eaten.

Obviously a really old thread. I don’t even know if the OP is still about, or whether s/he ever got the answer the OP was looking for or believed those telling him/her that tanks are not, in fact, obsolete. They are, arguably, even more critical on the modern battle field than they were when they first were introduced. Like all weapons systems, they aren’t silver bullets, invulnerable to everything and able to do everything on their own…they never were, and were always vulnerable to tactical air and infantry. I’m reminded of the perennial debate about carriers when I see this subject come up.

And they would be unbelievable weapons in a zombie apocolapse, as Dissonance mentioned, and contrary to popular fiction writers concepts. The only problem would be logistics, but if you can’t lock down that aspect with modern MBT then you deserve to be overrun by the ravening hordes. :stuck_out_tongue:

Tanks with laser turrets, to complement the sharks with the the same. And please don’t lock this epic thread.

I imagine that our weapons technology has advanced somewhat in the 12+ years since this thread came into existence. Perhaps the thread should be revived.