(never mind)
Some lesbians are only attracted to White people. Does that mean its acceptable to have a White’s Only speed dating service? Certainly, most people would say that it’s okay to have restrictions on who you’re interested in sexually or romantically, that would not be viewed as acceptable in any other sphere. But how far can you go creating spaces or services designed to facilitate romantic/sexual relationships? I can refuse to date Black people in my private life, but I can’t demand a White’s only bar that only allows White people, so I don’t have to be bothered by non-White people I don’t want to date.
Creating a “cis women only” space falls into the same general category. It’s fine if a person doesn’t want to date trans people. It’s not fine to demand that a place be created that doesn’t allow trans people, just so that person doesn’t have to be worry about wasting time chatting up someone they’re not interested in.
Certainly, one could argue that advertising a bar as a “gay bar” is just another sort of gatekeeping, and if you can’t create a space catering to people who only date other White people, surely you shouldn’t be able to create a space cater to people who only date other men? We generally allow an exception to the principle of non-exclusion for queer spaces, because otherwise, most of those queer spaces would not be able to exist, just as a function of demographics: queer people are a small enough minority that without some gatekeeping, queer spaces would be subsumed by the larger straight population. This is, however, not a problem with trans-inclusivity - trans people are an even smaller minority, and there’s no risk that a bar that didn’t exclude trans people would somehow attract a majority trans clientele. Even bars that specifically market themselves as “trans bars” usually have a majority cis clientele, because there just aren’t that many trans people out there.
True, but I think being attracted to cis women, or trans women, or both; cis men, trans men, or both; or any combination of the above - is more akin to differentiating by gender than it is to differentiating by race. YMMV.
Yeah, absolute disagreement on that from me. “I don’t want to date some that has/doesn’t have a penis” is closer, but that maps on to “dating trans people” imperfectly, at best.
But in those cases I would say it should still be up to the transwoman whether or not she wants to attend such a gathering. She knows going in that her having a penis may be a deal breaker for many in attendance and so may decide that its not worth it or she may decide there might be a few people who can look past it and so its worth a shot. Her decision. When she is paired with a woman who isn’t interest, that woman can say no thanks, just like she may have said no thanks to other incompatible women. The same could be true for a woman with extensive facial scars. Most of the women at the event may not want to date her, but that doesn’t mean she should be excluded.
A while back, a clinic in my region (and not the established free clinic, either) had a “Free Pap smears for lesbians” day. I’m not the only person who wondered how they would know someone was or wasn’t a lesbian.
A man I told a few years after the fact said, “They brought their toasters.” I had no idea what he was talking about, so he told me about the “Ellen” episode where lesbians got toasters at a local bank for getting a new account. (This same man also said that he and his wife attended a Tracy Chapman concert, and she told him later, "I’m an OB/GYN, and I couldn’t tell if some of the people in the audience were men or women!)
Interesting. I agree with your point about mapping, but I still don’t know if I agree that it’s analogous to racial preference. That’s not a position I hold particularly strongly, though, and I’d be interested to read opinions on the topic from people who have given the matter a lot more thought than I have. This probably isn’t the thread for it, though.
Whether or not the lesbians organizing the event prefer partners without penises, there are a lot of lesbian social gatherings that aren’t primarily about sex or dating. Just as there are many coed events in the straight world that aren’t about romance or dating.
Do people sometimes attend a gay square dance in the hope of finding a partner? Sure. But lots of people who are already partnered, and just like to dance in the gay circuit show up, too.
A lesbian once invited me to a house party that turned out to be 20 lesbians, me, my husband, and our male house guest. I felt like i was wearing a flashing sign that said “straight” as i walked in the door with two guys following me. It was mostly women who did martial arts together, and in one room, lesbians were throwing each other on the floor. (There were 3 other rooms.) I mean, that wasn’t billed as a lesbian event, or my friend wouldn’t have invited me and the guys. But it WAS a lesbian event. And i think the martial arts group they were in was geared towards lesbians. But neither had as it’s primary theme, “this is a speed dating event”.
I agree with all that, and if I were in the situation where I was attending dating mixers, I wouldn’t go to ones that are specifically billing themselves as trans exclusionary, mostly because the clientele for whom that’s a huge priority is not the clientele I’m interested in dating.
Oops, due to spotty Internet, i was about 6 hours out of date in that reply. And i think other people made my points better than I did. Sorry.
There was a time when every trans person i knew was dating a bisexual woman. I even speculated that women may, on average, be less “body focused” than men. Anyway, i know a lot of lesbians and bisexual women, and while i know there exist trans exclusionary lesbians, there are an awful lot of lesbians who are trans-inclusive.
Har, har, this is so funny! Who else can we make fun of?
Well duh, Doctor, that’s because the audience members at the concert are presumably not lying buttnaked with their legs apart on an examination table.
OB/GYNs are not automatically any more skilled than anybody else at identifying the gender and/or biological sex of random fully clothed strangers at a public event.
That’s true. The comment was, I think, intended to suggest a certain androgyny in the crowd rather than male-presenting folks being indistinguishable and female-presenting folks being indistinguishable.
It’s still not valid.
Agreed. (And since when is “androgyny” in personal appearance supposed to be a bad thing anyway, unless you’re some kind of gender-conformity zealot?
Just does my head in, how all the “gender-critical” advocates are saying at one moment how transgender identity is merely enforcing harmful gender stereotypes and we should all just embrace gender nonconformity and nobody would “need” to be trans. And then the next moment they’re making fun of the appearance of androgynous-looking people that they “can’t tell if they’re men or women!” ??? ! ?)
I would LOVE to talk about what conservatives think trans kids are getting away with that cis kids don’t. I would also love to know why they think this is the best route for kids to get the attention they seem to be craving.
Pervy stuff, apparently. AFAICT a whole lot of the conservative/gender-critical fuss about trans kids in bathrooms, for example, boils down to the assumption that transgender girls are just boys faking their way into spaces where they get to look at girls undressed.
Because of course that’s just what any boy would do if he could, right? Revenge of the Nerds is a documentary as far as these people are concerned.
And winning sports games! Changing your gender is the easy route to going to State in Women’s Wrestling. Shattering records and going undefeated is the goal for any boy and they can now do it with a skirt on if there is no social pressure for conformity.
In seriousness, these are the low hanging fruit of consequences so that’s why they’re talked about so often. A liberal version would be incest baby abortions, that’s not really a pressing national concern but rather a discussion device about liberty.
Except incest babies actually happen.
To a frighteningly large extent. Almost half of all child rape victims in the US were raped by a family member. And with a rape pregnancy rate of about 5%, that’s a nontrivial number of incest pregnancies.