Are teenagers who claim to be trans just acting out?

Great Debates
21

That’s not them defaulting to whatever you think their actual biology is. (Being trans may indeed be biologically based – just not in the same direction as the person’s genitals are.) That’s them being misgendered by other people. And in a particularly nasty fashion.

Nothing final about it, with modern medical technology.

And to the extent that trans people feel they can’t escape the portions of their bodies that don’t agree with their gender: isn’t that one of the causes of suicides? (Plus the attitude of society, of course; even when not expressed in the form of pointing out that one’s body may be more likely to be raped.)

I think, that it’s whatever it was that caused me to be entirely certain that I was a girl who wanted to do some of the boy things and not to do some of the girl things, including well before I had any idea that there was more than one type of genitals. (1950’s, no brothers, no male dogs. Neutered male cats don’t show anything obvious.) My reaction to being told that I was “walking like a boy” was “I’m a girl and I walk like this, so this must be a way that girls walk.”

Apparently not everybody has that sense of rock solid certainty of their gender. And a lot of people who do have it are cis. But I have no reason to doubt that some trans people, children included, have that same sense; and that this is why they’re insistent that their gender doesn’t match their plumbing.

What’s interesting is that that became stricter, not looser, as opportunities for women opened up.

I’ve got a 1950’s Sears catalog. The toy pages aren’t segregated. A number of the toys are clearly shown as for both girls and boys. The ones that aren’t relied, not on separate pages or color coding (there was very little color coding of anything), but on the assumption that of course everybody knew the nurse kit was for girls and the doctor kit was for boys – but the two were right next to each other on the page.

22

Same here. I had the son (born with female parts), 14, of a good friend of mine and his father visit me a couple weeks ago, and there was no doubt in my mind whatsoever he was the gender he presented as. This is my first encounter with somebody that young presenting as something other than birth sex, but at no point did I feel he was faking it for attention or anything like that. Maybe some do – I figure there’s probably some percentage that does as these things are never 100% one way or another, but with this. No. This wasn’t activing out, and his father told me from a young age it was apparent. I have no reason to doubt or disbelieve this.

23

Of course, it’s also possible, likely even, that there’s at least some genetic element to transgenderism, and so it’s not surprising that a sibling of a trans person would be more likely to also be trans than a member of the general population.

The Algorithms seem to have convinced themselves that I’m a teenage girl (I assume this is somehow because I’m associated in various ways with an all-girls’ school), and one ad I’ve seen a fair amount of is for a line of pink power tools. I’m still not sure if I should be happy that someone’s marketing power tools to girls, or annoyed that their notion of “market to girls” is “make it pink”.

Back to the OP, I think it might help to compare to other, less controversial, aspects of identity. For instance, for a great many adults (myself included), our profession is a significant part of our personal identity. I’m a teacher. That’s part of who I am. And yet, most of us didn’t always know what it would be that we wanted to do for a living. And it’s considered perfectly normal, acceptable, and even encouraged for young people to explore many different sorts of jobs, to decide what they ultimately want to do. And it’s almost never the case that the job a teenager does has any relation at all to the career they eventually go into.

If we have no problem with youth exploring their professional identity, and sometimes getting it wrong and changing their mind, why should we have any problem with them doing the same with any other aspect of their identity?

24

Cis Dad checking in, and SWM father of a 24 year old gender fluid non-binary they/them pronouns, and a 19 year old trans son (assigned female at birth). My son attended a small public combined middle & high school (6-12th grade) with about 100 kids per year that was very academic and required winning a lottery to get in. “Cis” for “cis-gender” or my sex is what I was born with. “Cis” being the preferred term by my kids, and the pretty large trans community at the multinational I work for.

@nearwildheaven Do you honestly think that the vast majority of kids would attend 3 years of middle school as “Jane”, go away for the summer, and return as a high school freshman as “Ted” for the attention? In my experience, the vast majority of cases it is for survival.

Not all trans fit the stereotype of obviously born in the wrong body from an early age. Such as a boy always wanting to wear dresses, play with dolls, etc.

Body dysphoria is definitely a thing for some people like my son. He was horrified starting to grow breasts. Forget about his first period. Puberty can hit like a ton of bricks, and most straight folks going through puberty can really hate the way they look, or their hair, voice changes, etc.

My son’s school teachers and admin were very supportive, the school didn’t tolerate bullies, classmates that he’d been with for the past 3 years (and some since kindergarten) were generally supportive or neutral, I got him a good private therapist, engaged with the Children’s Hospital gender clinic, did a 2 month anxiety workshop, and I got coaching from my son, eldest kid and trans colleagues. Saying his name and pronouns got easier after a few hundred times. :wink:

It was still a difficult journey. I got calls from the school probably 2 times a month because of suicidal ideation. Constant “joking” on an almost daily basis about “kill me now”, “I have nothing to live for”. It was highly disturbing, and there is no clear playbook on what to do. You realize that a bad day or three could end in suicide, even though it never seemed to me to be an imminent possibility but was always an undertone.

Initially, when my son came out. I said no irreversible medical transitioning until turning 18. 2.5 years into the journey I gave my support to start testosterone treatments. This was after my trans colleagues explained that can start on a real low dose, some people hate the feeling and stop quickly, others feel good, and it’s probably 6 months before low dosage is noticeable. So, a next step but not irreversible. A few days after his first shot of testosterone, the suicidal ideation flipped 180 degrees “Dad, drive safe in this snow now that I have a reason to live.” The testosterone made his voice drop, redistributed fat, created more muscle, and he stopped fearing about being a victim of a hate crime. (And I stopped having nightmares of some asshole beating the shit out of him in the men’s bathroom.)

Summer between junior and senior year of high school, my son had top surgery. Did his senior year of high school fully transitioned, and missed straight A’s as a university freshman on a science track by getting one B+.

Pro tip on what to do if your child ever comes out (trans or otherwise). “you’re my child, I love you, I’m here with you on the journey, big hug!”

Be a safe space and supportive. Trans kids have a horrific suicide rate, and they have to get through those rough few years of puberty, high school, brains maturing, etc.

As someone said upthread, it’s a lot safer for kids to explore than it used to be.

The whole anti trans movement is highly disturbing, and deeply personal. And it’s going to extend to the entire LGBTQIA+ community.

25

A lot of people just know what they’ve read on social media or picked up from other non-first-hand sources, especially from TV news stations whose main goal is to draw in eyeballs. It’s not surprising that they think it’s all just attention-seeking teens.

26

Don’t forget that there are quite a few people who have assorted intersex conditions, often things like mosaic XX/XY or androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is a recessive genetic condition that used to be called “testicular feminization”. Anyone who says they’re trans should definitely be tested for any of these conditions; I have never met an intersex person that I know of, but I have seen many interviews with them, and the one thing that has never changed is that they always said that for them, the worst thing was that they were lied to about it.

One of my high school classmates was featured, about 25 years ago, on a Discovery Health Channel program called “Changing Sexes”, in the f-to-m episode. When he held up his HS graduation photo, I nearly fell off the couch, because I had absolutely no idea that this cute girl who always had perfect makeup, hair, and clothes was hiding such a drastic secret.

Do I think a child would “come out as trans” out of the blue for attention, when they really are not? You better believe I do; these are kids who, a few years ago, would have gotten pregnant on purpose or done something equally drastic for attention, and it makes things harder for people who really are wired this way. That’s also why I believe in the old policy of a person living as the preferred gender for at least a year, and preferably two, before doing anything that could have permanent consequences.

As for pediatric hormone blockers, they exist primarily because of people like my cousin who started having precocious puberty at the age of 6. They took her off them when she turned 9, and she went through normal puberty at that time and is now in her 40s. Whether they should be used on children who identify as trans is something I’ll leave to people who work in the field.

27

So you don’t know that it happens, or if it does, how often. Do you know a single one?

Because you stated that

How much would you say is “a huge percentage”?

You know what’s really making things MUCH harder for people who really are trans? People who go around stating that a huge percentage of them are doing it for attention.

28

My AFAB child has been identifying as non-binary since about second grade (just started sixth), and prefers they/them pronouns.

This absolutely could be a true feeling they have, and something that lasts their entire life. Knowing my child, it also could totally be something that is done for attention or to feel special.

They tell stories and lies for attention all the time; beyond the normal “I didn’t do it” of all kids. Any statement or story from them needs to be taken as suspect without independent confirmation. They are creative, intelligent, and now old enough that these stories can be realistic and believable in ways they weren’t 5 years ago.

We’ve talked to professionals about it, not at all in a “how to stop this play acting” way, but in a “let’s make sure they get what they need” way. Currently the plan is to just wait, and see how it goes, which means letting puberty continue without intervention.

Lately they’ve also mentioned being bisexual, but I’ve not seen evidence of that because they’ve only ever shown something resembling (in a childlike way) sexual interest in Raiders era Harrison Ford, and TOS era Walter Koenig. (To which my wife commented, “straight, bi, whatever, at least they have good taste.”)

29

FWIW professionally I have encountered a fair number of kids of various age whose stated gender identity is different than that assigned at birth. I’ve never met one that I believe was doing it for attention or to excuse other behaviors. Possibly it happens but I believe it must be quite infrequent.

I have known a fair number who believe they are inside a different gender than assigned at birth one year and do not a couple of years later. These kids have been well served by parents whose sole message is that they love them period and who support in the “whatever” manner you seem to take @echoreply. (Decisions about using puberty blockers to give more time for the exploration to continue being a separate discussion.)

Probably most who showed no sign of gender discordance during child and teen years but do at age 25 ish were hiding it out of fear, but I do wonder if some are wanting the identity within their social circle. But just tell me what to call you and I will.

But in kids? I really don’t see it. Mostly they’d love less attention and to just fit in as the gender they identify as.

30

Since one of my friends is a trans man who gave birth to his two children after transitioning, I’d say his body didn’t get to have the final say on his gender identity. Even bearing children didn’t make a dent in his choice.

31

My wife is a middle school teacher, so over the last few years I saw both how students are identifying as trans and how schools react to it.

Ten years ago it was pretty uncommon. Some years there might be one kid at the whole school who was out as Trans. And the teachers were basically just talles ‘X is going by Y now and can use the [boys/girls/most commonly staff] bathrooms from now on’.

When this occurred it was usually because the kid brought documentation from doctors and psychologists saying they were unsergoing transition and needed these accommodations. It was a whole Big Deal ™ with Admin calling the shots.

There have been two shifts on this topic. First, it’s now a lot more common. Closer to “one in the cohort of kids my wife teaches” than “one in the whole school”.

Second, it’s much less of a big deal. A psychologist may still be involved and the parents may volunteer that info, but it isn’t a requirement for getting the school to consider your request.

Do kids ever do it for “attention”? Probably. In the last few years I’ve seen a couple cases where a kid says they identify as a different gender, their parents tell the school and the teachers, everyone starts making accomodations - and a couple months later, the kid, their parents, and their friends are all referring to the kid by their original name and gender. The teachers, who are required to make the accomodation, are the last ones still doing so until finally the kid or parents say “oh yeah, that’s not a thing anymore”.

But… is this a problem? Probably not. OK, so you identified as the opposite gender for a few months in middle school. I don’t think that will have a negative impact on your life in the future.

What could negatively impact you in the future if you decide you aren’t trans after all is you had any major medical operations done. But the medical community is super cautious about that. Contrary to right wing propaganda, the bar for getting hormones or surgery is much higher, because doctors have different standards than schools (as they should).

Is there a fringe minority of a fringe minority that, if they were running things, might take the availability of medical intervention too far? I’m sure they exist, yes. You occassionally hear about Trans activists who get in trouble when they give children hormones outside of any medical framework (that’s apparently where that ‘waow/based’ meme originates, according to Know Your Meme). Luckily, the majority of the pro Trans community, as well as the medical community, is very much against that sort of thing.

And, to flip things around, that’s why it’s so important not to let politics get in the way of actual medical professionals doing their job. You don’t want kids getting their hormones in a back alley any more than you want them going there for abortions.

So in conclusion… are there kids who identify as trans (or especially non binary) not because it helps them overcome gender dysphoria (our traditional definition for a trans person), but because they want attention or to be part of the LGBTQ+ ‘scene’, etc? Almost certainly, yes.

But those kids aren’t going to medically transition. They may or may not eventually start to conform to gender roles again when they grow up. But does any of that really matter?

32

Imagine for a moment that medical transitioning technology was a million times more advanced than it is today; maybe more than would ever be possible, even theoretically. Maybe we inject you with a CRISPR style virus that goes in, snips away your one of your sex chromosomes (the Y for men, one of the X’s for women) and replaces it with the opposite one, in every single cell. Then we put clumps of stem cells and nanomachines in a few key places on your body and a month later you’re biologically identical to someone who was born the opposite sex. And of course, the procedure is fully reversible. Maybe we keep a copy of your original chromosome on file. Hell, maybe the replacement chromosome is your dad’s X or Y - whichever you originally did not get.

I think if that was what transitioning meant, then lots of people would do it. Either decide partway through life that they want to try living as the other gender, or even switch back and forth with some regularity.

33

To be very clear that lack of persistence in gender discordance in younger children is NOT evidence of “faking it”for attention. Yes in younger kids it really can be “a phase”. And teens stating they have gender discordance tend to have that identity persist much more consistently.

Also the “hormones” bit needs be qualified. Mostly kids are very rarely given gender affirming hormones until they are quite persistent in their gender discordant identity and closer to adulthood. That is very different than delaying puberty as an intervention to avoid having puberty impose lasting physical changes that are harder or impossible to reverse, until the individual is old enough to be more sure of what direction to go.

34

The situations I am familiar with were all teens.

Note that doing something “for attention” or in order to belong to a social group is not necessarily the same as “faking it”. The distinction I was drawing is whether the motivation is based on gender dysphoria or on social queues. Identifying as a different gender or as non binary for social reasons is not the same as “faking” it, but it is also not the same as doing so to overcome dysphoria.

Did you read what I wrote?

Yes, the medical community does a great job:

What I was talking about afterwards, the “fringe of a fringe” group of people like the one that the “waow/based” meme is about, did things like give HRT to kids over a Discord server. Very much not just delaying puberty.

It’s a good thing that the majority of the trans community, and the entirety of the medical community, condemns these sorts of actions.

35

Has Michael Hobbes ever had a discussion with anyone who has given him even the slightest bit pf pushback? While the guy is certainly smart, he cherry picks a lot of his information, projects a one sided argument with a well-disposed and friendly co-host, and has done so in three successive podcasts.

I take anything he says with less trust than I did a Hannity & Colmes debate: at least Colmes ostensibly wasn’t Hannity’s ally. I don’t think Hobbes intends on putting out rank falsehoods, but there’s no shot of his rounded corners, stretches of the truth, or unfounded leaps to conclusions to be seriously questioned on anything he does.

36

It’s more acceptable now for young people, every one really, to consider their sexuality with more flexibility than in the past. That doesn’t mean anyone who isn’t comfortable in the old fashioned binary model of sexuality is acting out when they consider the possibilities or just aren’t sure how to define their sexuality. What they’re doing is what anyone would do if they didn’t feel restricted in their choices.

37

Huh. FWIW my experience and the literature both affirm the relative infrequency of gender discordance transience if it persists into teen years.

Yes I read what you wrote and felt that clarifying the difference between gender affirming hormonal therapy (taking action to cause lasting changes) and puberty delaying therapy (delaying any lasting changes a bit while exploration of identity continues) was important to highlight.

38

Where did I say anything about gender discordance?

I’m sure you’re right, children probably do have temporary bouts of gender discordance much more often than teens or adults do, where it’s more likely they have permenant dysphoria than temporary discordance.

But not everyone who goes to their school and says “I want to identify as the opposite gender or as nonbinary” is experiencing discordance or dysphoria.

My guess is that of the girls I know of who identified as male temporarily and then stopped (and all these cases were girls identifying as boys - which is probably relevant because the social stigma around FTM is lower than MTF and therefore it’s probably an easier mental hurdle to clear without genuine dysphoria), none were motivated by dysphoria. But of course I have very limited info.

When the bar was much higher and you needed to be mid transition with a doctor’s note to get any accomodations, then yeah, you probably had very few people, if any, ask for accomodations without genuine underlying gender discomfort.

Nowadays you can ask your school to call you by a different name or to refer to you by different pronouns without getting a note from a doctor, so some people who do ask for that don’t have underlying gender dysphoria and are doing it for social reasons.

This isn’t really a problem, because there are few to no long term consequences for having your teacher call you a different gender for a few months and then deciding you changed your mind.

There are medical steps that it would be much more harmful to take and then regret; which is why the bar for having your teacher change the pronouns they use for you is so much lower than the bar for medical intervention.

The bar for any kind of medical intervention is much higher than the bar for changing your pronouns in class. Once we get into the universe of medical intervention, of course there are different bars to clear once again; the bar for hormone blockers is lower than the bar for hormone replacement and that’s lower than the bar for surgery.

39

In your post. You describe a discordance between gender assigned at birth and gender they wish to be identified as. Your point I think is that there is not necessarily a dysphoria involved? But that is discordance.

And while you understand that, and likely most posters here do, many in the general public do not. Use the word “hormonal” and they assume hormone replacement that causes changes that are minimally difficult if not impossible to reverse. They do not understand the difference between that and delaying puberty for a bit.

I think it is worth making that clear.

40

I want to thank all the thoughtful responses, from medical professionals, from trans adults, from people with trans or non- binary children. Anyone who contributed meaningful perspective to the topic. Thank you for your patience.