# Are the actions of BLM wise or foolish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278 "2015-11-22T15:18:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/221 "2015-12-06T15:57:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So there’s a grey area, then. Which is what I thought – so we just disagree about the characteristics and motivations of the BLM protests. No big deal – I see it as closer to previous Civil Rights protests, and you don’t, therefore I think disruptive tactics might be effective and appropriate, and you don’t. Oh, their effective alright. Particularly if your goal is to have the clock on race relations go backward. Oh, they comfort of wallowing for forever in a sea of victimhood. Makes me want to create a shrine to Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton. But at least they’re doing it for the money. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/222 "2015-12-06T16:06:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, their effective alright. Particularly if your goal is to have the clock on race relations go backward. Oh, they comfort of wallowing for forever in a sea of victimhood. Makes me want to create a shrine to Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton. But at least they’re doing it for the money. Funny snark! I’ll think of an equally funny and dismissive snarky response and get back to you. Great silly time snarking with you! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/223 "2015-12-06T16:15:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Funny snark! I’ll think of an equally funny and dismissive snarky response and get back to you. Great silly time snarking with you! Nice attempt to dismiss the point. And the point is, the actions turn the race relations clock backwards. i feel the same way about these assholes at college campuses and Chicago’s shopping strip interfering with people’s business, and businesses, as I do about the Critical Mass cyclist assholes who do the same thing. They both are so sure that they’re cause is so worthy. Do you feel my pain and righteousness, man? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/224 "2015-12-06T16:15:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So if the lesson they learned is “we can get what we want if we can hit them in the wallet”, well and good. That is certainly something worth knowing, if you can bring it off. But you usually can’t bring it off. If the lesson they learned is “we can get what we want by protesting”, then that is something different. Because I care rather less than nothing both about the Missouri college football team and the BLM protests. And if they say “I will protest until I get what I want”, they better not hold their breath until I give in. > > “We DEMAND justice and we’re not going to do X until we get it!!!” really depends on how much I want them to do X. If I care about X, that’s one thing. If I don’t, well that’s nice, son - now piss off. I’m late for my nap. > > Regards, > Shodan I find it very interesting that, in your own mind, you put yourself in a position where you both have the power **to be appealed to** by the protesters **and** the power **to freely ignore** protesters. I have rather shocking news for you. While you might be insulated enough to be the latter, you are _most definitely_ not important enough to be the former. The goals of these protests is to target the influential and powerful (the UoM case was to change the president and the Chicago protests target City Hall and higher forms of government). This simple fact holds true for many of the naysayers in this thread (‘those protesters lost my valuable support’ etc). You brag that you gleefully dismiss/mock BLM for their tone/values/etc, but you do so in a dream world where you are influential enough to be the target of their appeals. I’m sure these protesters would love universal support, but frankly they don’t need it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/225 "2015-12-06T16:16:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So there’s a grey area, then. Which is what I thought – so we just disagree about the characteristics and motivations of the BLM protests. No big deal – I see it as closer to previous Civil Rights protests, and you don’t, therefore I think disruptive tactics might be effective and appropriate, and you don’t. Of course there’s a grey area. It’s not a radical position to suggest it’s a bad strategy to rally around a thug or screw with people’s daily lives with intimidating chants. I remember a phrase on old boss once told be. One “awe shit” wipes out 10 “atta boys”. What it means is that bad stuff gets remembered more than good stuff. They need to focus on the right cause and present themselves in a professional manner. Not only will their message get ignored they risk a deadly change in behavior. Their message is “better police tactics”. That’s a good message. But the consequences of firing the officer in Ferguson and the police chief in Baltimore is pretty obvious if you’re a police officer. They will change their tactics to avoid getting fired for doing the right thing. That’s why it’s called the Ferguson Effect. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/226 "2015-12-06T16:23:56Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I certainly don’t want to see any violence. But anarchy and trespassing can not stand. If there are future such protests which restrict access to businesses or public facilities , the police need to react swiftly. If the protestors refuse to disperse , then arrests need to be made and charges filed. Ideally, the use of tear gas can be avoided. What’s hilarious is that you think that any semblance of peace and order will result from those action. This is why you are not in a position of power to make calls like this. These protests are very ordered and peaceful, you simply **want anarchy**. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/227 "2015-12-06T16:25:11Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > This simple fact holds true for many of the naysayers in this thread (‘those protesters lost my valuable support’ etc). You brag that you gleefully dismiss/mock BLM for their tone/values/etc, but you do so in a dream world where you are influential enough to be the target of their appeals. I’m sure these protesters would love universal support, but frankly they don’t need it. are you listening to yourself? Nobody is bragging. You’re attacking Shodan for an opinion instead of learning from it. What if a bunch of white people started shutting down areas that are mostly black because they’re tired of all the violence? Local people lose wages because they can’t get to work or lose tips because their business was shut down. There isn’t going to be any favorable response to the cause regardless of how good it is. The message needs to be focused and well articulated. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/228 "2015-12-06T16:28:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nice attempt to dismiss the point. And the point is, the actions turn the race relations clock backwards. I disagree, obviously. I think stuff like this is necessary to move it forwards. > [@](#): > > i feel the same way about these assholes at college campuses and Chicago’s shopping strip interfering with people’s business, and businesses, as I do about the Critical Mass cyclist assholes who do the same thing. > > They both are so sure that they’re cause is so worthy. Do you feel my pain and righteousness, man? You’re entitled to your opinion; I just think you’re wrong. If you want to discuss why, feel free – but so far the only thing I understand you saying is “their disruptive tactics are hurting their cause”, and I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/229 "2015-12-06T16:28:30Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > What’s hilarious is that you think that any semblance of peace and order will result from those action. This is why you are not in a position of power to make calls like this. These protests are very ordered and peaceful, you simply **want anarchy**. They rioted and burned a Ferguson neighborhood. They shut down a section of Chicago. That’s not peaceful, that’s destructive. Police officers are reluctant to engage in the kind of activity that stops crimes in rough neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/230 "2015-12-06T16:29:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Of course there’s a grey area. > > It’s not a radical position to suggest it’s a bad strategy to rally around a thug or screw with people’s daily lives with intimidating chants. > > I remember a phrase on old boss once told be. One “awe shit” wipes out 10 “atta boys”. What it means is that bad stuff gets remembered more than good stuff. > > They need to focus on the right cause and present themselves in a professional manner. Not only will their message get ignored they risk a deadly change in behavior. > > Their message is “better police tactics”. That’s a good message. But the consequences of firing the officer in Ferguson and the police chief in Baltimore is pretty obvious if you’re a police officer. They will change their tactics to avoid getting fired for doing the right thing. That’s why it’s called the Ferguson Effect. I haven’t seen evidence that the Ferguson effect is real – so far it could just be minor random fluctuations in the short term. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/231 "2015-12-06T16:30:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They rioted and burned a Ferguson neighborhood. They shut down a section of Chicago. That’s not peaceful, that’s destructive. Police officers are reluctant to engage in the kind of activity that stops crimes in rough neighborhoods. That wasn’t BLM – BLM hasn’t advocated for violence or destruction of any kind. Inconveniencing traffic isn’t violent or destructive, just inconvenience. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/232 "2015-12-06T16:53:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I haven’t seen evidence that the Ferguson effect is real – so far it could just be minor random fluctuations in the short term. I’ve cited the evidence for this. You’re just ignoring it as if it didn’t happen and ignoring common sense. Nobody is going to piss away their career. That’s reality. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That wasn’t BLM – BLM hasn’t advocated for violence or destruction of any kind. Inconveniencing traffic isn’t violent or destructive, just inconvenience. Shutting down businesses is financially destructive. It appears you might be trying to parse the word “destructive” to make a point. Blocking people is against the law. It’s not just an inconvenience. If you think this endears people to a cause you are much mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/233 "2015-12-06T16:57:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve cited the evidence for this. You’re just ignoring it as if it didn’t happen and ignoring common sense. Nobody is going to piss away their career. That’s reality. If you had a cite that did any more than hypothesize that any possible small, short term increase in crime is due to the “Ferguson Effect” then I missed it. So far, all I’ve seen is a small increase in crime over a very short period that some are saying is the Ferguson effect – no actual evidence of changes in police behavior. > [@](#): > > Shutting down businesses is financially destructive. It appears you might be trying to parse the word “destructive” to make a point. If BLM has shut down business that could be destructive. I haven’t seen any evidence that they’re shutting down businesses. > [@](#): > > Blocking people is against the law. It’s not just an inconvenience. If you think this endears people to a cause you are much mistaken. If they’re violating the law then they’ll get prosecuted. Many protesters alongside MLK Jr. were arrested and prosecuted too. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/234 "2015-12-06T17:31:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you had a cite that did any more than hypothesize that any possible small, short term increase in crime is due to the “Ferguson Effect” then I missed it. So far, all I’ve seen is a small increase in crime over a very short period that some are saying is the Ferguson effect – no actual evidence of changes in police behavior. I quoted an FBI chief as well the sharp rise in deaths as well as the firing of a police chief over it. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If BLM has shut down business that could be destructive. I haven’t seen any evidence that they’re shutting down businesses. [BLM shuts down businesses in Chicago](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-race-chicago-protests-idUSKBN0TG1OO20151127). But[their goal of forcing retailers to suffer economic pain](http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-black-friday-mag-mile-fallout-1201-biz-20151130-story.html) on what’s historically the busiest shopping day of the year was a success, according to unhappy store staff and managers who said Monday that Black Friday sales on the Magnificent Mile were 25 percent to 50 percent below projections. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If they’re violating the law then they’ll get prosecuted. Many protesters alongside MLK Jr. were arrested and prosecuted too. uh huh. You want to think that through for me? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/235 "2015-12-06T17:58:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, their effective alright. Particularly if your goal is to have the clock on race relations go backward. Oh, they comfort of wallowing for forever in a sea of victimhood. Makes me want to create a shrine to Jesse Jackson, and Al Sharpton. But at least they’re doing it for the money. Before we move forward… Magellan, do you agree that African-Americans were persecuted and victimized in Ferguson in the last 15 years? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/236 "2015-12-06T18:47:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I quoted an FBI chief as well the sharp rise in deaths as well as the firing of a police chief over it. Yes – the correlation (which doesn’t equal causation), and a hypothesis by the FBI chief. That’s an assertion of a hypothesis. Maybe it’s a reasonable one, but it’s not proven or even evidence of anything beyond a blip, at this point. > [@](#): > > [BLM shuts down businesses in Chicago](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-race-chicago-protests-idUSKBN0TG1OO20151127). For a day? Okay, some businesses were “shut down” for a day (I thought you meant “put out of business forever”). Yes, very inconvenient for some, I’m sure. I think some inconvenience can be justified. > [@](#): > > But[their goal of forcing retailers to suffer economic pain](http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-black-friday-mag-mile-fallout-1201-biz-20151130-story.html) on what’s historically the busiest shopping day of the year was a success, according to unhappy store staff and managers who said Monday that Black Friday sales on the Magnificent Mile were 25 percent to 50 percent below projections. Very inconvenient, I’m sure. So were many sit-ins and other Civil Rights protests. > [@](#): > > uh huh. You want to think that through for me? Pretty simple – exactly what I said. If you’re arguing that a tactic is wrong, then that’s fine, but I haven’t seen any tactics that weren’t used before during Civil Rights protests. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/237 "2015-12-06T18:50:04Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Before we move forward… Magellan, do you agree that African-Americans were persecuted and victimized in Ferguson in the last 15 years? Do you agree that depressed areas like Ferguson are social hell-holes where police are faced with a tide of criminal behavior that is not easily handled? Victimized is a 2 way street here. Yes, there can be a problem with police procedures. Yes there can be a problem in how people react to police. It doesn’t occur in a vacuum of statistics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/238 "2015-12-06T18:56:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Do you agree that depressed areas like Ferguson are social hell-holes where police are faced with a tide of criminal behavior that is not easily handled? Victimized is a 2 way street here. > > Yes, there can be a problem with police procedures. Yes there can be a problem in how people react to police. It doesn’t occur in a vacuum of statistics. The Justice Department’s [Ferguson report](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/) showed that Ferguson’s law enforcement priority was raising revenue, not public safety, and that black people were very disproportionately targeted for nuisance revenue-raising tickets, and dinged again and again when they were unable to pay at first. The powerless were exploited to give money to Ferguson. Arrest warrants were almost exclusively used as threats to get payments. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/239 "2015-12-06T19:05:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The Justice Department’s [Ferguson report](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/) showed that Ferguson’s law enforcement priority was raising revenue, not public safety, and that black people were very disproportionately targeted for nuisance revenue-raising tickets, and dinged again and again when they were unable to pay at first. The powerless were exploited to give money to Ferguson. Arrest warrants were almost exclusively used as threats to get payments. yes, and? What does that have to do with BLM, Michael Brown, the riots or this thread? We’re battling this in my state now with camera tickets. Cities are whining about the loss of revenue. The legislators lowered the boom on them because the public didn’t like it. As much as I’m against them I still managed to drive the speed limit and stop at stop lights. There is a good way to protest something and a bad way. This thread is about BLM’s tactics. IMO I’ve listed those events that were bad and I supported my reasons why it harms the cause. You can be right about something and still fuck yourself in the ass dealing with it. Just because people think BLM is full of dumb asses doesn’t mean they disagree with some of what they said. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278/240 "2015-12-06T19:08:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, and? What does that have to do with BLM, Michael Brown, the riots or this thread? These practices, which had been going on for many years, created an immense and _legitimate_ feeling of resentment from the black community towards the Ferguson PD, who carried out policies that exploited them and made them suffer to raise money. The black people of Ferguson probably already knew they were being mistreated and exploited, and they had known for years. And BLM never advocated for riots or any violence of any sort. > [@](#): > > We’re battling this in my state now with camera tickets. Cities are whining about the loss of revenue. The legislators lowered the boom on them because the public didn’t like it. As much as I’m against them I still managed to drive the speed limit and stop at stop lights. There is a good way to protest something and a bad way. This thread is about BLM’s tactics. > > IMO I’ve listed those events that were bad and I supported my reasons why. > > You can be right about something and still fuck yourself in the ass dealing with it. Yes, I get it – you attribute rioting and violence to BLM, and I don’t. You condemn tactics that result in mass inconvenience, and I don’t necessarily (though I may agree on certain instances). Those are the disagreements, from what I can tell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-actions-of-blm-wise-or-foolish/738278.md?page=13)