# Are the after effects of colonialism to blame for most African countries current problems? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456 "2010-03-14T17:41:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/81 "2010-03-17T14:05:40Z")
I find it depressing that an interesting thread about the causes of poverty in Africa is, once again, **dominated** by “race realists” who bring their ahistorical, apolitical, intellectually dishonest, racist bilge to the direct forefront of all discussion. It’s like creationists who storm an evolutionary discussion and demand “equal time.” Their goal is simply to steer all debate to combating their fantasy, pseudo-biological, “race science”; then feel good that they got their message “out there.” Now that I said **that** I would like to steer this thread into a more rational-analytical direction. It is important to keep in mind that African States are not interchangeable. To analyze the economic state of “Africans” you must first realize that there are many different political states that have cultured widely differening economic enviroments. You need to focus your resolution onto a political entity if you are to get any coherent answer. For example Zimbabwe faces drasticallyy different economic problems then Ethiopia or Senagal due to many vasy different factors (Due to differening enviroment/political-climate/history/socio-cultural divisions/religious-ethnic divsion/etc). Here are a list of African countries according to their [GDP _per capita_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_countries_and_territories): GDP Name 17,700 Algeria 16,312 Equatorial Guinea 13,703 Mauritius 12,700 Libya 12,161 South Africa 11,818 Seychelles 11,400 Botswana 8,800 Tunisia 7,478 Namibia 7,055 Gabon 6,418 Cape Verde 5,245 Swaziland 4,836 Egypt 4,600 Morocco 3,919 Republic of the Congo 2,813 Angola 2,700 Ghana 2,607 Zimbabwe 2,600 Mayotte 2,522 Sudan 2,421 Cameroon 2,402 Mauritania 2,113 Lesotho 2,070 Djibouti 2,035 Guinea 2,002 The Gambia 1,759 Senegal 1,700 Togo 1,700 Uganda 1,660 Comoros 1,600 Côte d’Ivoire 1,519 Chad 1,445 Kenya 1,389 Mozambique 1,300 Rwanda 1,284 Burkina Faso 1,266 São Tomé and Príncipe 1,198 Central African Republic 1,188 Nigeria 1,176 Benin 1,154 Mali 1,003 Liberia 1,000 Eritrea 931 Zambia 905 Madagascar 903 Sierra Leone 872 Niger 823 Ethiopia 774 Democratic Republic of the Congo 739 Burundi 736 Guinea-Bissau 723 Tanzania 600 Somalia 600 Somaliland 596 Malawi Lets take a couple of these countries as case studies. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/82 "2010-03-17T14:26:38Z")
The [current economic situation](http://www.africaneconomicoutlook.org/en/countries/north-africa/algeria/): > [@](#): > > SINCE 2000 ALGERIA HAS CONSOLIDATED its economic growth, and the reforms undertaken are beginning to bear fruit. Growth in 2008 was 3.3 per cent and inflation 4.4 per cent. Having appreciated since 2007, the exchange rate of the dinar (DZD) remained close to its equilibrium value in 2008 (68 dinars to the US dollar [USD]), and unemployment stabilised at around 12 per cent of the active population. Strengthened by an average oil price of USD 99 per barrel in 2008, the Bank of Algeria built up foreign exchange reserves amounting to almostUSD142 billion. Following early repayments, total external debt fell to USD 460million (0.27 of gross domestic product [GDP]), and internal public debt dropped by nearly 30 per cent. Weak growth of 0.2 per cent is expected in 2009, as a result of falling global demand and reduced prices of oil and gas. > > The state budget remains expansionary because of the higher wage bill and increased public investment, but the deficit, excluding oil taxes, remains high (approximately 42 per cent of GDP, excluding oil and gas). The overall fiscal position remains positive thanks to higher oil and gas revenue, but in 2009 it is expected to feel the effects of the global crisis and the collapse in oil prices. To ensure the medium-term viability of public finances and balance of payments, the country will need to diversify further its non-oil economy. This is the only solution to create enough jobs, reduce unemployment and improve the standard of living of the population. [Political background info on the country](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ag.html): > [@](#): > > After more than a century of rule by France, Algerians fought through much of the 1950s to achieve independence in 1962. Algeria’s primary political party, the National Liberation Front (FLN), has dominated politics ever since. Many Algerians in the subsequent generation were not satisfied, however, and moved to counter the FLN’s centrality in Algerian politics. The surprising first round success of the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) in the December 1991 balloting spurred the Algerian army to intervene and postpone the second round of elections to prevent what the secular elite feared would be an extremist-led government from assuming power. The army began a crackdown on the FIS that spurred FIS supporters to begin attacking government targets. The government later allowed elections featuring pro-government and moderate religious-based parties, but this did not appease the activists who progressively widened their attacks. The fighting escalated into an insurgency, which saw intense fighting between 1992-98 resulting in over 100,000 deaths - many attributed to indiscriminate massacres of villagers by extremists. The government gained the upper hand by the late-1990s and FIS’s armed wing, the Islamic Salvation Army, disbanded in January 2000. Abdelaziz BOUTEFLIKA, with the backing of the military, won the presidency in 1999 in an election widely viewed as fraudulent and was reelected in a landslide victory in 2004. BOUTEFLIKA was overwhelmingly reelected to a third term in 2009 after the government amended the constitution in 2008 to remove presidential term limits. Longstanding problems continue to face BOUTEFLIKA, including large-scale unemployment, a shortage of housing, unreliable electrical and water supplies, government inefficiencies and corruption, and the continuing activities of extremist militants. The Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC) in 2006 merged with al-Qaida to form al-Qaida in the Lands of the Islamic Maghreb, which has launched an ongoing series of kidnappings and bombings - including high-profile, mass-casualty suicide attacks targeting the Algerian Government and Western interests. **Important demgraphic questions** Poplulation size: 34,178,188 Urban population: 65% Religious makeup: Sunni Muslim (state religion) 99% Ethnic makeup: Arab-Berber 99% (but “the minority who identify themselves as Berber live mostly in the mountainous region of Kabylie east of Algiers; the Berbers are also Muslim but identify with their Berber rather than Arab cultural heritage”) Literacy: 69.9% Labour force - by occupation: [ul] [li]agriculture: 14%[/li][li]industry: 13.4%[/li][li]construction and public works: 10%[/li][li]trade: 14.6%[/li][li]government: 32%[/li][li]other: 16% (2003 est.)[/li][/ul] Exports: $52.03 billion (2009 est.) [ul] [li]petroleum, natural gas, and petroleum products 97%[/li][/ul] Imports: $39.51 billion (2009 est.) [ul] [li]capital goods, foodstuffs, consumer goods[/li][/ul] Good questions to ask to get an idea of internal cohesion/mobility: Is there an ethnic plurality or not? a religious one? How does ethnic groups and religious groups mix? Does religion split along ethnic lines or not? What about language? ethnic groups and language groups are usually not the same. Which groups speak which language? How different are the languages in question? What about dialects? How do they split among the language groups? Does the country border any unstable state? Do they share a border with another state who has a simiular ethnic makeup? If you want a more historical approach then you will need to read about the political history of that nation. This includes pre and post colonial. Start in the pre-colonial history to show how things were run and how groups interacted with the other groups. It also will help you learn about which groups are more closely related to which other groups and if there is a deep history of ethnic/religious strife between them. Starting from that you should continue the colonial history which –most likely- shaped the modern state that you are interested. There are a thousand questions to ask for this time period but to keep it (too) simple the most important things to learn are: Who was the colonizer? How was the colony run? Did they build an educated administrative class? What basic infrastructure was laid down? Did the state act as a political cohesive unit? Now read about the post colonial history. Who were the rulers? How was it run? What economic system was followed (communist/capitalist/mix)? Was they political security? Was there a strong concept of national pride? Was there strong sense of demographical tension? Is there any political, linguistical, cultural, historical, or religious cohesiveness that was forged before/during/after the creation of the modern nation? These are simple questions that need to be asked. However we rarely go this deep when we ask a question like the one in the OP “Why is Africa poor?” It’s a good question, but it requires a lot more knowledge and research then any of us even try to do. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/83 "2010-03-17T14:42:17Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > IIt is important to keep in mind that African States are not interchangeable. To analyze the economic state of “Africans” you must first realize that there are many different political states that have cultured widely differening economic enviroments. And even _that_ is complicated. For example, Equatorial Guinea is #2 on the list thanks to oil, but 60% of the population makes under $1.00 a day. Pretty amazing, huh? ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/84 "2010-03-17T15:57:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I hope this is a whoosh. Neither the Egyptians nor the Carthagians were White by any measure. Not classic “negro”, but not White, either. Quite brown, in fact. I thought the italics would have given the sarcasm away. Any time this stuff comes up, **Chen019** and **Chief Pedant** come in with their, “Time and science will show why my particular race is smarter and more successful than the rest.” How much do you want to bet **Chen** is east Asian and **Chief** is white? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/85 "2010-03-17T16:32:51Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Granted the point on Egyptians (who seem to have covered quite a spectrum), but … Carthaginians? Mate, they were Phoenicians, not Africans, and the dominant type in Lebanon is quite palish. “Palish”, sure, but they were, and are still, a Semitic people, and therefore NOT White by any measure I know. \*I \*never said they were _Africans_, just **brown**. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/86 "2010-03-17T16:57:18Z")
The [current economic situation](http://www.africaneconomicoutlook.org/en/countries/central-africa/cameroon/): > [@](#): > > REAL ECONOMIC GROWTH ACCELERATED to 4.1 per cent in 2008, up from 3.4 per cent in 2007, thanks to good results in the oil sector, ongoing infrastructure work, increased energy supply and programmes to boost agriculture, livestock and fisheries. It is expected to slow to 3.1 per cent in 2009 due to the global recession pushing down prices and demand for the country’s main commodities exports (chiefly oil, wood, cotton and rubber) and to electricity supply problems resulting from severe drought, but should pick up again in 2010 to reach 3.4 per cent. In view of the economy’s extreme – and growth-compromising – dependence on oil, a major challenge facing the government in 2009 is to increase revenue from the non-oil sector. Political background info on the country: > [@](#): > > The former French Cameroon and part of British Cameroon merged in 1961 to form the present country. Cameroon has generally enjoyed stability, which has permitted the development of agriculture, roads, and railways, as well as a petroleum industry. Despite a slow movement toward democratic reform, political power remains firmly in the hands of President Paul BIYA. **Important demographic questions** Poplulation size: 18,879,301 Urban population: 57% Religious makeup: indigenous beliefs 40%, Christian 40%, Muslim 20% Ethnic makeup: Cameroon Highlanders 31%, Equatorial Bantu 19%, Kirdi 11%, Fulani 10%, Northwestern Bantu 8%, Eastern Nigritic 7%, other African 13%, non-African less than 1% Linguistic makeup: 24 major African language groups, English (official), French (official) Literacy: 67.9% Labour force - by occupation: ``` * agriculture: 70% * industry: 13% * services: 17% ``` Exports: $3.409 billion (2009 est.) ``` * crude oil and petroleum products, lumber, cocoa beans, aluminum, coffee, cotton ``` Imports: $3.739 billion (2009 est.) ``` * machinery, electrical equipment, transport equipment, fuel, food ``` In comparing Cameroon to Algeria a few key things jump up at me. **Politically:** Algeria has a far more controlling government while Cameron’s rulers have (at least) been paying lip service to democratic reform. Algeria came out of colonization as a cohesive unit (France was the only colonizer) while Cameroon is made up of two separate colonies (English and French). Algeria seems to have been also colonized for a bit longer (1830-1962) then Cameroon (1919-1960). **Demographically:** Cameroon has a wide mix of religious/ethnic/language groups in a population half the size of Algeria. Literacy seems to be equal and Cameroon seems to be less urbanized then Algeria. **Economically:** Both economies are fueled by petroleum. Algeria seems to be more strongly based on Oil then Cameroon (probably based on the vastly different land-size/population ratio). Cameroon’s labour force seems to be wholly dedicated to farming (an economically poor choice for making a living) while Algerians have a paltry 14% on that. Cameroon also has a import/export deficit while Algeria is (very much) in the black. Last but not least Cameroon’s export economy is more diverse, but drastically smaller then Algeria. Next stop… \*\*Benin \*\* ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/87 "2010-03-17T17:04:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And even _that_ is complicated. For example, Equatorial Guinea is #2 on the list thanks to oil, but 60% of the population makes under $1.00 a day. Pretty amazing, huh? Yeah, we need a metric that measures what percent of the population is making what percentage of the GDP. **Income inequality** perhaps? Do you know of any good sources? …I used “Labour force by occupation” as an _ad hoc_ metric for this… ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/88 "2010-03-17T17:07:47Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Yeah, we need a metric that measures what percent of the population is making what percentage of the GDP. **Income inequality** perhaps? Do you know of any good sources? > > …I used “Labour force by composition” as an _ad hoc_ metric for this… The GINI coefficient is often used. It is imperfect, but so is the underlying data. This wiki list gives a sensation: > **[List of countries by income inequality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality)** > > This is a list of countries and territories by income inequality metrics, as calculated by the World Bank, UNU-WIDER, OCDE, and World Inequality Database, based on different indicators, like the Gini coefficient and specific income ratios. Income from black market economic activity is not included. > The Gini coefficient is a number between 0 and 100, where 0 represents perfect equality (everyone has the same income). Meanwhile, an index of 100 implies perfect inequality (one person has all the... ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/89 "2010-03-17T17:11:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Palish”, sure, but they were, and are still, a Semitic people, and therefore NOT White by any measure I know. \*I \*never said they were _Africans_, just **brown**. Semite is a **language grouping,** not a “race” - the dominant phenotype in that area (modern lebanon) is right bloody pale, not ‘brown.’ Neither are most of the Berbers of the area that Carthage ruled. Not calling them “white” is a cultural distinction, every bit as white as your average Greek. Not that 19th century racial hairsplitting is enlightening of anything. Of course that says fuck all about anything, I’m not defending the crazy back-door racialism. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/90 "2010-03-17T17:33:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And even _that_ is complicated. For example, Equatorial Guinea is #2 on the list thanks to oil, but 60% of the population makes under $1.00 a day. Pretty amazing, huh? Nope, not really. Brutal, corrupt dictators who view their countries as their own private playgrounds for theft, rape and murder are pretty common, sadly. It always amazes me how men with all that power and wealth at their disposal seem to revert to the age of twelve. (Though even at that age, I’d have been appalled at their excesses, as would most of humanity.) Obiang is so utterly, irredeemably wretched that I’ve actually some sympathy for the Wonga Coup plotters: [2004 Equatorial Guinea coup attempt - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Equatorial_Guinea_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt) Sure the new regime would have been pretty darned corrupt itself, and dominated by foreign interests. But it’s difficult to imagine it actually being _worse_ than the current government. Note: I am _not_ excusing neo-colonial adventurism generally. And had the coup actually succeeded, my sympathy for it would be far more muted. But it’s hard not to look at Equatorial Guinea and not despise its government. ---
**Author:** ![DoubleS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7993a0/32.png) [@DoubleS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoubleS)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/91 "2010-03-17T17:50:45Z")
Methinks we all miss the point here. ☹ Africa is poor. Yes. But by what standards? Some of the African poor (if you are willing to ignore the media pictures of starved children with hands held out for alms) subsist very well on their land. Before the pale-face economy they could very well supply their needs and those of their families. The population was low enough to keep them relatively satisfied. The climate and population density did not make it necessary to build multi-story concrete buildings, or castles with large fireplaces. Neither, because most needs could be met locally, did they require elaborate transport infrastructure. Colonialism not only brought in the exploiter, it brought in a whole new economic way that was not suited to that area at the time. Consider that in places like Kenya and Uganda hut tax was introduced so that the _lazy_ natives could be forced to work for _civilised_ projects instead of staying at home and enjoying what they felt was their due. Part of the problem was that a way of life was introduced without making the native population understand why this way of life was necessary. When the colonist left the same people were expected to live in a _civilised_ manner in spite of the fact that large areas of the continent had only seen the exploitative part of _civilisation_ and presumed that that was how _civilisation_ works At the time of most African countries independence only areas of interest to the colonist were _civilised_ while areas that were deemed to have no use where left untouched other than on maps. Some areas took several years after _independence_ to even know which country they belong to, and some, to date, still have land and family spreading across borders of, sometimes, feuding countries. In addition many of the colonial powers left in place structures that were meant to exploit the raw materials of these countries for the benefit of the _advanced_ economies. Notice that to date many African countries still have a law that prohibits the cutting down of coffee tries even while the farmer could more profitable use the land for other crops. Many of these raw materials were required to be processed in the _developed_ countries and brought back to African to be consumed maintaining a dependency on the colonial industries and economies. And before anybody asks why Africa couldn’t develop there own processing facilities please study your own patent laws first. Africa is slowly coming to grips with the western way of life, in spite of the complete lack of understanding for many as of the necessity of this way of life. You’ve heard the saying, **if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it**. Africa is one continent that was fixed way before it became broke. True colonialism is not the only reason to blame for the woes of Africa but it did, and still does, contribute a whole lot to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/92 "2010-03-17T19:23:50Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Semite is a **language grouping,** not a “race” _Semitic_ is an ethnicity. > [@](#): > > - the dominant phenotype in that area (modern lebanon) is right bloody pale, not ‘brown.’ They look brown enough to me. Not as dark-brown as Egyptians, more on the same level as Persians or Turks. I’m mostly going by a NatGeo article from a couple years ago on the Human Genetics project, which showed that Lebanese are almost identical to their regional Canaanite ancestors, with something like a 5% European admixture (Crusaders, I think) - the pictures of the fishermen they did the studies on were all pretty brown. Yes, probably indistinguishable from a Greek or Sicilian or a Spaniard fisherman. I’d call those brown people too. They may deny the Turkish/Moorish/Semitic part of their ancestry, but I don’t think you have to look to hard to see it. Note - I’m not getting all Afrocentric here - I agree with the current thought that the Semitic peoples are aboriginal to the Anatolia-Med coast-Arabian peninsula area, that they’re completely distinct from any African ethic types. But I think it’s a bit much to lump them in with the Celts and Nordics under some overall White umbrella term, when they’re clearly a little more gifted in the melanin department. The point isn’t to set up some modern version of Von Luschan’s chromatic scale - that’d be pointless. It’s more to emphasise that whatever they were, the Phonecians (and Egyptians) did not fall under the banner of “European”. Yeah, that’s a better way of putting it - they were non-European. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/93 "2010-03-17T19:54:53Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > What exactly has been discredited though? As Hsu points out here: > > [Information Processing: "No scientific basis for race"](http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html) > > University of Virginia Psychologist Jonathan Haidt also made a similar observation in light of recent studies showing accelerated genetic changes over the past 10,000 years. > > [http://www.edge.org/q2009/q09\_4.html#haidt](http://www.edge.org/q2009/q09_4.html#haidt) My understanding was that the **existence** of any **hereditary** differences in intelligence between “races” had long since been discredited (rendering moot any evolutionary explanations for such) – I thought that was pretty well established after [_The Bell Curve_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_bell_curve) came out (see [_The Bell Curve Wars,_](http://www.amazon.com/Bell-Curve-Wars-Intelligence-Republic/dp/0465006930) 1995). But, if you somehow think it’s still an open question, I’ve opened a [new thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=556158) to debate that. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/94 "2010-03-17T23:35:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you yourself just posted: And what exactly is your point? PS, I’d like to thank **Orcenio** for bringing some rational discourse back to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/95 "2010-03-17T23:56:37Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Eh? > > The regime in Morocco dates back to the 16th century, of course the Algerians had their old Ottoman rulers booted by the French back in the early 1800s, so hard to say anything there, but for both the Tunisians and the Algerians they had centuries long rule by Ottoman beys. Hard to see how one can say states did not last terribly long in North Africa, quite the contrary really. Again, I didn’t say they were all like that, although citing foreign domination by the Ottomans as a period of internal stability is a bit far-fetched. My major point is that even the North African states have undergone a heck of a lot of change and are no longer recognizable as the same entities which dominated those regions even a century ago. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/96 "2010-03-18T02:09:28Z")
are North African states any better or worse or in any way different from the Arab states in the Middle East? If not, why include them into this discussion? The Arabs have their problems, but the sub-Saharan Africans have a lot more problems, and of different kinds. And yes, I guess there is always the borderland cases like Mauritania, Mali or parts of Sudan where there is a mix of the Arab and African ethnicities and cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/97 "2010-03-18T03:47:22Z")
Originally Posted by **Chief Pedant** : “\*The overall performance of Africa as a continent comptetitive on the world stage by any number of measures wasn’t particularly impressive at any point in history, pre- or post colonialism. \*” > [@Blake](#): > > I hope you are joking. > > Just in case you are serious, it may surprise you to know that Egypt was \*the \* global superpower for a thousand years. We can then add in Carthage, which came within a hair’s breadth of displacing Rome. Africa was impressive on the world stage for far longer than any other continent can even dream of. Perhaps you missed the “overall” part of my post, and perhaps I should have emphasized sub-saharan Africa instead. I agree that the populations of those two regions were spectacularly successful competing on the stage of world history. Or perhaps we disagree on whether Carthage and Egypt are an adequate synecdoche for “Africa.” ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/98 "2010-03-18T04:06:23Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If you mean sub-Saharan Africa, which is what we have been discussing in this thread, then such evidence would be startling indeed. You see, cattle aren’t native to sub-Saharan Africa. For somebody to domesticate an animal when there aren’t any animals of that type present would be quite a feat. > > If you mean North Africa, well that would take some damn strong evidence to be convincing, considering that it is so close to Arabia, where we \*know \*that cattle herding wasn’t developed independently. The academics were referring to what is now the Sahara, when it wasn’t a desert. Some of these populations then migrated into SSA. I’ve never seen anyone claim that cattle were domesticated in SSA. In fact, most of SSA is unsuited for cattle because of the tsetse fly. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/99 "2010-03-18T04:18:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Semitic_ is an ethnicity.They look brown enough to me. Not as dark-brown as Egyptians, more on the same level as Persians or Turks. I’m mostly going by a NatGeo article from a couple years ago on the Human Genetics project, which showed that Lebanese are almost identical to their regional Canaanite ancestors, with something like a 5% European admixture (Crusaders, I think) - the pictures of the fishermen they did the studies on were all pretty brown. Yes, probably indistinguishable from a Greek or Sicilian or a Spaniard fisherman. I’d call those brown people too. They may deny the Turkish/Moorish/Semitic part of their ancestry, but I don’t think you have to look to hard to see it. > > Note - I’m not getting all Afrocentric here - I agree with the current thought that the Semitic peoples are aboriginal to the Anatolia-Med coast-Arabian peninsula area, that they’re completely distinct from any African ethic types. But I think it’s a bit much to lump them in with the Celts and Nordics under some overall White umbrella term, when they’re clearly a little more gifted in the melanin department. The point isn’t to set up some modern version of Von Luschan’s chromatic scale - that’d be pointless. It’s more to emphasise that whatever they were, the Phonecians (and Egyptians) did not fall under the banner of “European”. > > Yeah, that’s a better way of putting it - they were non-European. So you don’t buy the idea that Afro Asiatic language speakers had a common origin in the horn of Africa? I still find it convincing, keeping in mind that the migrants would have mixed thoroughly with the aboriginal populations, so Hausa speakers are blue black, and Arabic speakers are brown skinned Mediterranean types. A trivial point, I suppose, but the offspring of Somali -European and Ethiopian - European pairings look very much like Semites. Not to go too far off topic, but what do you make of the the latest genetic research shows that the Oromos of Ethiopia and the Khoisan peoples of South Africa share some the oldest clades. The theory being that the Bantu expansion out of West Africa separated what was originally a continuous population. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456/100 "2010-03-18T04:26:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I find it depressing that an interesting thread about the causes of poverty in Africa is, once again, dominated by “race realists” who bring their ahistorical, apolitical, intellectually dishonest, racist bilge to the direct forefront of all discussion. It’s like creationists who storm an evolutionary discussion and demand “equal time.” Their goal is simply to steer all debate to combating their fantasy, pseudo-biological, “race science”; then feel good that they got their message “out there.” > > Now that I said that I would like to steer this thread into a more rational-analytical direction. > > It is important to keep in mind that African States are not interchangeable. To analyze the economic state of “Africans” you must first realize that there are many different political states that have cultured widely differening economic enviroments. You need to focus your resolution onto a political entity if you are to get any coherent answer. For example Zimbabwe faces drasticallyy different economic problems then Ethiopia or Senagal due to many vasy different factors (Due to differening enviroment/political-climate/history/socio-cultural divisions/religious-ethnic divsion/etc). Here are a list of African countries according to their GDP per capita: Then again, CP and Chen019 aren’t really interested in Africa. They’re interested in US ethnic politics, and they interpret everything through that framework. They don’t know anything about Africa, and they have no interest in learning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-after-effects-of-colonialism-to-blame-for-most-african-countries-current-problems/532456.md?page=6)