# Are the American people more "liberal" or more "conservative"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910 "2004-12-21T03:02:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/1 "2004-12-21T03:02:24Z")
I recently started a GD thread: “What are the prospects for a left-wing analogue to Fox News?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=292551](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=292551) In response to the question, “How many people would watch it?” **Debaser** posted the following: > [@](#): > > Very few. In addition to the reasons outlined above, there simply isn’t that many liberals in America. Although something like 45% of the country is conservative only about 20% is liberal. You are suggesting a left of liberal network, so this target market is even smaller. To which I replied: > [@](#): > > Cite? (And what definitions of “conservative” and “liberal” is the source in question using?) > > In _Dude Where’s My Country?_ (Warner Books, 2003), Chapter 9, Michael Moore called the U.S. a “liberal paradise” based on the following statistics (all taken from polls cited at the back of the book, from 2002 or 2003): > > 57% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases. > > 86% say they agree with the goals of the Civil Rights movement; four out of five say it is important for colleges to have racially diverse student bodies. > > 83% say they agree with the goals of the environmental movement. > > 94% want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and sale of all handguns; 86% want this even if it makes guns more expensive. > > Eight in ten Americans believe health insurance should be provided equally to everyone in the country. > > 62% support changing current laws so that fewer nonviolent offenders are sent to prison. > > 85% support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians. > > 58% think labor unions are a good idea. > > None of these statistics, of course, deal with military or national-security issues; many commentators believe it was just those things that tipped the last election towards the GOP. But obviously there is a **big** market for liberal ideas in America, much more than the 20% figure you gave. To which **Sam Stone** replied: > [@](#): > > BrainGlutton said: > > Quote: > > 57% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases. > > In the third trimester? Partial-birth abortion? What’s the number if you remove people who accept abortion only in the case where the mother’s health is in danger, or people who only beleive in 1st trimester abortions in the case of rape and incest? > > Quote: > > 86% say they agree with the goals of the Civil Rights movement; four out of five say it is important for colleges to have racially diverse student bodies. > > And how many support affirmative action? How many support quotas? > > Quote: > > 83% say they agree with the goals of the environmental movement. > > Mom and apple pie. By the way, what are the ‘goals of the environmental movement’? It’s going to be pretty hard to find anyone who believes that the environment should be raped willy-nilly. Ask more specific questions. > > Quote: > > 94% want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and sale of all handguns; 86% want this even if it makes guns more expensive. > > What federal safety regulations? > > Quote: > > Eight in ten Americans believe health insurance should be provided equally to everyone in the country. > > Here is one example of what I would consider to be a ‘liberal’ belief. > > Quote: > > 62% support changing current laws so that fewer nonviolent offenders are sent to prison. > > Again, you need to be specific to get what people are really wanting. > > Quote: > > 85% support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians. > > Including most conservatives. This isn’t a ‘liberal’ viewpoint. > > Quote: > > 58% think labor unions are a good idea. > > How about closed shop laws? How do people feel about union violence? Strikes by necessary workers? > > And yet, over half of all voters voted Republican. How do you reconcile that with the above poll? > > This is the problem with stupid stats like this (and I’m not surprised to find them in a Michael Moore book) - it’s trivially easy to make the electorate look like anything you want, just by choosing which questions you ask, how you ask them, and how you word them. Let’s take those same questions and turn twist them a bit: > > 1. Do you agree with partial birth abortions? Do you think people should be allowed to have an abortion at any time during a pregnancy, regardless of the reason? > > 2. Do you think colleges should have more conservatives on their faculties? > > 3. Do you think that environmental interests should come before economic interests? Do you support drilling in ANWR? Would you accept the Kyoto treaty if it meant an end to economic growth? > > 4. Do you support the second amendment? Do you believe people should have the right to own firearms, both handguns and rifles? > > 5. Do you think the state should control access to health care? Do you believe that doctors should be allowed to treat who they want and set their own fees? > > 6. Do you support anti-crime initiatives? Do you believe that criminal punishment is too severe, or not severe enough? > > 7. Do you support a federal amendment to allows gays and lesbians to marry? > > 8. Do you support ‘closed shop’ laws? Should employers be allowed to hire non-unionized workers if they so choose? > Somehow, if you asked those questions I think you might get somewhat less of a ‘liberal’ result. At this point, rather than hijack the original thread into discussion of a question highly relevant to, but clearly separate from, the OP, I think it is appropriate to start a separate thread. Are the American people more “liberal” or “conservative”? What proof is there on either side of the question? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/2 "2004-12-21T03:09:41Z")
The people are getting more liberal, but the conservative faction is much more militant. Evidence for more liberal: - Success of Queer Eye for Straight Guy and Will and Grace. Unthinkable a decade ago. - The Republicans liked to paint Kerry as the most liberal Senator. 49% of the people had their votes counted as supporting him. If Kerry is so liberal and so far out of the mainsteam, why so much support? - Divorced presidential candidates (Reagan, Kerry) and nobody cared. A generation ago, it would have been difficult for a divorced man to run for president. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/3 "2004-12-21T03:23:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The people are getting more liberal, but the conservative faction is much more militant. I don’t see that at all. I see more “militant” attitudes from the left. Evidence for more liberal: > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Success of Queer Eye for Straight Guy and Will and Grace. Unthinkable a decade ago. I think you’re confusing tolerance with folks being more liberal. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > The Republicans liked to paint Kerry as the most liberal Senator. 49% of the people had their votes counted as supporting him. If Kerry is so liberal and so far out of the mainsteam, why so much support? I wouldn’t be so sure that 49% fully supported Kerry - many were voting for “anybody but Bush” for many reasons, and liberalism isn’t necessarily one of them. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Divorced presidential candidates (Reagan, Kerry) and nobody cared. A generation ago, it would have been difficult for a divorced man to run for president. Changing times. A generation ago fewer people divorced. A great many conservatives get divorced these days. That doesn’t mean that they’re more “liberal.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/4 "2004-12-21T03:49:26Z")
> [@Wrath](#): > > Changing times. A generation ago fewer people divorced. A great many conservatives get divorced these days. That doesn’t mean that they’re more “liberal.” I think an old-school conservative like William F. “stand athwart history and shout ‘Stop!’” Buckley might dispute that point. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/5 "2004-12-21T04:06:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think an old-school conservative like William F. “stand athwart history and shout ‘Stop!’” Buckley might dispute that point. Yes, but unless I am much mistaken, that statement is from the 50s. What conservatives wanted back then is quite different from what they want today. I think we could say the same thing about liberals. Were there any statistics about how many people support speach codes on campus? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/6 "2004-12-21T04:26:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Are the American people more “liberal” or “conservative”? What proof is there on either side of the question? More liberal or conservative **than what**? I don’t think the question makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/7 "2004-12-21T04:32:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > More liberal or conservative **than what**? I don’t think the question makes any sense. I think that he meant more or less than in the past. He is interested in which way the wind is blowing. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/8 "2004-12-21T04:37:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Divorced presidential candidates (Reagan, Kerry) and nobody cared. A generation ago, it would have been difficult for a divorced man to run for president. Reagan _was_ elected a generation ago. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/9 "2004-12-21T05:36:50Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > I think that he meant more or less than in the past. He is interested in which way the wind is blowing. If that’s it, then I would suggest there are many winds and some are blowing left while others blow right-- especially if we’re looking at time periods of 5 - 10 years. But if we look at longer time periods (50 -75 yrs), there is no doubt we’re moving left. Most of the social programs that seemed radical several generations ago are pertty much taken for granted by both parties now-- we don’t argue so much about whether they should exist or not, we just argue about how much is too much or too little. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/10 "2004-12-21T05:49:36Z")
There is no such thing as “the American people”. Whenever a politician says “The American People want this!” or “The American People demand that!” he is blowing smoke up your Nixon. There is only one thing that the American people have it common: they mostly believe that there _is_ such a thing as the American people, and that the American people, for the large part, agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/11 "2004-12-21T05:52:48Z")
That’s a good point. I have used it before to suggest that some social policies are not “for the people”. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/12 "2004-12-21T06:04:22Z")
And there is the fact that “being a liberal” in Europe is a complement, whereas in the Rush Limbaugh / Bill O’Riley’s land it is a taboo. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/13 "2004-12-21T06:08:59Z")
Dunno bout that, never been. I might go some day, but probably would never get out of Amsterdam. Really like coffee. But I get the impression that our concept of “liberal” doesn’t much apply there. They just think of it as being “normal”. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/14 "2004-12-21T07:27:54Z")
So, the United States of America is the insane asylum of the planet? _That’d_ explain a lot… ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/15 "2004-12-21T10:48:34Z")
What a wonderfully vague OP. As was mentioned above, compared with 75 years ago, definitely more liberal but compared with, say, 15 years ago, I would say, as an outsider looking in, more conservative. Two examples that spring to mind: In another thread, there is reference to a report suggesting 44 per cent of Americans are in favour of curtailing the rights of US muslims - would that have been the case in 1990? And, on a completely different tack, there appears to be a lot less nudity acceptable in Hollywood movies these days. The question is, which way will it go from here? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/16 "2004-12-21T12:28:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > - The Republicans liked to paint Kerry as the most liberal Senator. 49% of the people had their votes counted as supporting him. If Kerry is so liberal and so far out of the mainsteam, why so much support? I have to agree with Wrath… 49% included a lot of “we don’t want Bush” people… still the fact that they were willing to “risk” a liberal is a positive sign. > [@Wrath](#): > > I don’t see that at all. I see more “militant” attitudes from the left. Liberals or those who might be considered liberal aren’t militant enough I feel. Just because they were the opposition do conservatives like to paint them as whiners or protestors (aka militant). Conservatives were actively poking around churches and rallying votes. By far the right was pushing and succeding in getting people to vote… it wasn’t as visible or on the internet. As for the “liberal” being a negative label now… thats true… but if people just chose to use other labels like “libertarian” that doesn’t mean they stopped being liberal 100%. I think overall americans bend a bit to what might be considered liberal ideas… but they certainly after 9/11 are bending towards more overtly right wing truculence. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/17 "2004-12-21T12:51:37Z")
> [@Wrath](#): > > I think you’re confusing tolerance with folks being more liberal. I think tolerance is the first step. Equality if the last step. We have a long ways to go, but we’ve taken the first step and every step is a step more liberal. If the country is so conservative, this tolerance wouldn’t have happened and the networks would have been flooded by phone calls at the first hint of homosexuality in a show. And it has been a generation since Reagan. Time flies. But again, if the country was not becoming more tolerant and progressively more liberal, divorced presidential candidates would be unheard of. Look at Social Security. Once the great radical liberal social program, it is now the third rail of politics. Look at civil rights- only 40 years ago Jim Crow was alive and well, now it’s nothing more than a tragic bit of history. Although there is a militant minority of Christian fundamentalists, more Americans are tolerant of other religions than 40 years ago. It was a big deal that JFK was Catholic, now we’ve had a Jewish vice presidential candidate and nobody batted an eye. I think the perception of a rightward shift is caused by the minority of radical righties being more militant and of course the recent electoral success of the Neocon George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/18 "2004-12-21T13:06:07Z")
Tolerance is good… but not necessarily “liberal” I think. Tolerating gays and blacks means not beating or hanging them ? They still don’t like them “niggers” or them “fruits” getting married. I do agree with you about “social” laws and so… but then what is defined as liberal also changes. Overall laws and culture have changed. Tolerance for one group might be just exchanged for new intolerances ? ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/19 "2004-12-21T14:23:35Z")
Why am I the only person who seems to recognize that America’s electorate is really only about half the population? At least that’s what they tell us about voter turnout. This year, it was really huge, voter turnout… something close to 60% of **registered voters** showed up to vote. That leaves about 40-50% of the country who are a) underage and b) not registered to vote. Perhaps the unregistered opinion doesn’t count to you. But I work with and interact with unregistered people all day long. There are dozens of reasons people are not registered to vote, ignorance probably being the predominate reason. My point is when conservatives say, “51% of this country support Bush.” I maintain it’s more like 30% of the population of this country – a really vocal, powerful, effective 30% nonetheless. That 30% just happened to be 51% of the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910/20 "2004-12-21T14:30:49Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > My point is when conservatives say, “51% of this country support Bush.” I maintain it’s more like 30% of the population of this country – a really vocal, powerful, effective 30% nonetheless. That 30% just happened to be 51% of the electorate. An excellent point. With a committed minority, you can claim an electoral majority. Not only that, your electoral success is misread as a shift in public attitude. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-american-people-more-liberal-or-more-conservative/280910.md?page=2)