# Are the "Beta fish in a vase" setups cruel to Betas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 8, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245 "2008-06-08T18:07:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/21 "2008-06-09T19:25:35Z")
[QUOTE=groman] I really don’t get this fairly commonly held opinion that ‘suffering’ is some sort of a higher mental function. The average housefly might not be able to express it in a way that you can empathize with, but anything that is capable of perceiving negative stimulus and has some sort of programming to try to avoid that stimulus can be said to be ‘suffering’ if it is put in a situation of negative stimulus it cannot avoid. Human, betta, housefly or intestinal worm. [/QUOTE] I believe that you’re confusing “stress” and “suffering”. Fish do not have the mental capacity to have an affective experiance. Fish are not self aware. Suffering is absoluely a higher mental function. All living things however can experiance negagive stimulus and that’s usually then quantified as stress. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/22 "2008-06-09T20:21:48Z")
I’m confused. What if I pulled the fins off the fish, then tossed him back in the tank. Would it not be feeling pain? One might quibble about the word “suffering” in that case, but it’s still gotta hurt, right? ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/23 "2008-06-11T18:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=CookingWithGas] From where, and more importantly how, do a male and a female betta manage to get into the same water buffalo footprint after it fills with water? [/QUOTE] They use [match.com](http://match.com) to find a partner and then hail a cab. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/24 "2008-06-11T19:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=Diomedes] Huh? They’re fish, right? Fish have gills… why would they need to come to the top? I thought the only marine life that needed to come to the surface were aquatic mammals like dolphins, whales, and merfolk! [/QUOTE] I don’t really see mine come to the top of the tank, although he hangs out in the top half of the tank (when I can see him–there’s a lot of foliage in there). He does come up to grab his food. Or to nibble on my finger. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/25 "2008-06-11T19:16:56Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] I don’t really see mine come to the top of the tank, although he hangs out in the top half of the tank (when I can see him–there’s a lot of foliage in there). He does come up to grab his food. Or to nibble on my finger. [/QUOTE] He does take air from the surface, even if you don’t notice it. It’s just a very quick little dart up and back down. Nothing prolonged. It looks a lot like when they’re nipping at some food. You might have seen him taking air without realizing that’s what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/26 "2008-06-11T19:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=ShadowFacts] I’m confused. What if I pulled the fins off the fish, then tossed him back in the tank. Would it not be feeling pain? One might quibble about the word “suffering” in that case, but it’s still gotta hurt, right? [/QUOTE] Actually there’s quite a debate as to the degree that fish feel pain. I have a book at home with several cites against the idea, I’ll post them later as well and the gist of the scientific idea that fish do not feel “pain” as we understand it. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/27 "2008-06-11T21:04:26Z")
[QUOTE=drhess] FYI, it should be “betta” with two t’s. [/QUOTE] Someone needs to tell these people: [http://betafacts.com/](http://betafacts.com/) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/28 "2008-06-11T21:16:14Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent] At the risk of sounding callous - is it even _possible_ to be cruel to a fish, of any sort? As I understand it, they’re no more sentient than the average housefly. There isn’t really a mind there capable of suffering - so how could one be “cruel” to a fish? [/QUOTE] Nitpick: “Sentient” means “having the ability to sense the environment.” A fish is more or less just as sentient as you are; they can see, smell, feel, etc. They’re not very INTELLIGENT, but they can definitely feel discomfort. They have a central nervous system. I’d rather err on the side of caution and minimize the likelihood they’ll experience pain. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/29 "2008-06-11T21:16:23Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] That’s the truth! My coworkers who have this vase/plant/betta setup keep lamenting that they have such black thumbs as they stare at their yellowing, wilting, stunted peace lilies. Well, DUH! If you had half a lick of plant sense you’d realize that leaving them soaking in water for six weeks without any real feeding or air to the roots isn’t ever going to be good for the plant, unless it’s actually an aquatic plant. While spathiphyllum is a plant that tolerates consistently damp soil, it’s not an aquatic plant. [/QUOTE] Some type of nonaquatic plants do okay. We’ve had a betta in a gallon cider jug for about 3 years now, with a piece of philodendron stuck in the top. It’s beautifully green, grows really fast, and we regularly have to trim the roots, so that they don’t take up too much room. (Although the fish does like to nap in them, like a hammock.) When we got a second betta (different jug), we just lopped off a section of the first plant and stuck it in the water. It started putting out roots in just a week or so. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/30 "2008-06-11T21:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=drhess] They use [match.com](http://match.com) to find a partner and then hail a cab. [/QUOTE] . . . But it’s the walk back home to their own puddle in the morning that’s the killer. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/31 "2008-06-11T23:20:01Z")
[QUOTE=ShadowFacts] I’m confused. What if I pulled the fins off the fish, then tossed him back in the tank. Would it not be feeling pain? One might quibble about the word “suffering” in that case, but it’s still gotta hurt, right? [/QUOTE] I don’t think fish have the brain structures to feel pain as we understand it. In “Consider the Lobster,” David Foster Wallace discusses what happens to a lobster when it is boiled alive. As part of this, he discusses the subjective experiences of people with brain damage who do not experience pain anymore. The structures of the brain that allow us to experience pain (and that were damaged in the individuals he discusses) are not present in lobsters so they cannot feel pain as we understand it. I don’t think fish have these structures, either. They might experience something, but it is not pain. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/32 "2008-06-12T00:22:45Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] That’s the truth! My coworkers who have this vase/plant/betta setup keep lamenting that they have such black thumbs as they stare at their yellowing, wilting, stunted peace lilies. Well, DUH! If you had half a lick of plant sense you’d realize that leaving them soaking in water for six weeks without any real feeding or air to the roots isn’t ever going to be good for the plant, unless it’s actually an aquatic plant. While spathiphyllum is a plant that tolerates consistently damp soil, it’s not an aquatic plant. [/QUOTE] FWIW, many spp. of Spathiphyllum can in fact be adapted to aquatic conditions, although they do better if their foliage is allowed to bread the surface. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/33 "2008-06-12T01:28:50Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] \*Betta spp. \*have been known to breed in water buffalo footprints. [/QUOTE] The male builds a bubble nest about half the size of a tennis ball. I would like to see a cite. Perhaps buffalo footprints are larger and deeper than I imagine. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/34 "2008-06-12T01:43:11Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I don’t think fish have the brain structures to feel pain as we understand it. In “Consider the Lobster,” David Foster Wallace discusses what happens to a lobster when it is boiled alive. As part of this, he discusses the subjective experiences of people with brain damage who do not experience pain anymore. The structures of the brain that allow us to experience pain (and that were damaged in the individuals he discusses) are not present in lobsters so they cannot feel pain as we understand it. I don’t think fish have these structures, either. They might experience something, but it is not pain. [/QUOTE] I’m deeply dubious of these claims. For one thing, they sure do make us feel better. I’m suspicious of science claims that let us off the hook, like “black people need to be kept as slaves, they can’t make their own decisions.” Scientists have also made sweeping claims before like “No animal uses tools/words/names/shows self awareness/can count/asks questions/can form concepts,” all of which have been disproven. Scientists asserted that they knew almost everything about the laboratory mice they’d been studying for decades, only to realize recently that mice sing. Scientists have asserted that _human babies_ don’t feel pain – at a time that such an assertion was comforting. I’m also dubious about assertions of what structures are necessary. Hydrocephalics who are missing 90% of their brain volume have been shown to be able to converse normally and do well in school despite missing _entire structures_ scientists assert are _necessary_ for these functions. Scientists never actually told us bumblebees couldn’t fly – but they did tell us bumblebees lacked the physical structure _we understood to be necessary_ to fly. Then they learned about mitochondria. I’m not anti-science. But I am keenly aware of our need to lie to ourselves to feel better, and of our endless egotistical quest to define ourselves as the unique center of the universe, despite repeatedly seeing this specialness vanish in a puff of Copernicus, Darwin, or Pepperberg. Sailboat ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/35 "2008-06-12T01:55:07Z")
For anyone interested, below is a link to Wallace’s article which I appear to have somewhat distorted and simplified: [http://www.lobsterlib.com/feat/davidwallace/page/lobsterarticle.pdf](http://www.lobsterlib.com/feat/davidwallace/page/lobsterarticle.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/36 "2008-06-12T14:49:30Z")
[QUOTE=drhess] FYI, it should be “betta” with two t’s. _schnipp_ and **hodd** is required. … [/QUOTE] heh … there oughtta be a law. 😃 The other end of the OP: Is there such thing as too much room for a bet(t)a? Like would it be lonely in a 55 gallon aquarium all by its lonesome? And what is the maximum depth you could expect one to frequent? More than a few feet? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/37 "2008-06-12T17:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya] Is there such thing as too much room for a bet(t)a? …More than a few feet? [/QUOTE] My experience has been that he would hang out near the surface where he made his nest and wait for a potential lady friend to swim by. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/38 "2008-06-12T18:10:40Z")
[QUOTE=drhess] FYI, it should be “betta” with two t’s. [/QUOTE] Actually, I have a beta betta. Once the pectoral fin glitch is fixed, they will be available for general release. 😉 [QUOTE=flodnak] (This is a bit of a sore spot for me because I keep rats, one of whom has had several episodes of respiratory infection, and I’ve gotten hints from nosy parkers that it’s madness to pay vet bills for an animal that costs about twenty bucks. Well, besides the fact that we’ve bonded to the goofy little furball, there’s that whole responsible pet ownership issue, see…) [/QUOTE] Cost of the animal is irrelevant. I had a client spend hundreds of dollars for me to do a mastectomy on his pet rat. I have also done cesarean sections on guinea pigs, where the surgical fee was the same as it would have been if the patient were an expensive show dog. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/39 "2008-06-13T04:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] The male builds a bubble nest about half the size of a tennis ball. I would like to see a cite. Perhaps buffalo footprints are larger and deeper than I imagine. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Perhaps. Perhaps also they build as big a nest as they can in whatever circumstances they find themselves. I’ve bred Bettas and I think of the nest size as somewhat variable. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245/40 "2008-06-13T13:31:34Z")
[QUOTE=lissener] Perhaps also they build as big a nest as they can in whatever circumstances they find themselves. [/QUOTE] Probably; I’d still enjoy reading about it, and wonder what happened to the Happy Couple and their many fry. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-beta-fish-in-a-vase-setups-cruel-to-betas/452245.md?page=1)