# Are the blm protesters right that the Democratic party is not the answer **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 10, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446 "2015-08-10T13:31:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/21 "2015-08-11T02:18:55Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > They should also do a better job of spotting when they have an ally on the stage. They _are_ allied, directly. Bernie is drawing them some big crowds to rant at, and they are giving him the chance to show civility and implicit support by not having them dragged off by jack-boots. Both of them are scoring with this, they might have even arranged it all ahead of time. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/22 "2015-08-11T12:05:11Z")
Yes. I have no idea why blacks are so totally faithful democrats. Dems take their votes, then ignore them till the next election, and democrat policies make the situation worse for their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/23 "2015-08-11T12:57:56Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > Yes. > > I have no idea why blacks are so totally faithful democrats. Dems take their votes, then ignore them till the next election, and democrat policies make the situation worse for their lives. Being ignored is better than being beat on. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/24 "2015-08-11T12:59:13Z")
Well, now the gauntlet has been thrown down. If Democrats don’t prioritize African-American issues, then, er, well, I’m not sure what African-American voters will do. Apparently vote Democrat anyway. But who knows, maybe given more than a year until the election they’ll start figuring out how much leverage they can have simply by threatening to vote Republican. Democrats literally can’t win if they don’t win at least 85% of the black vote. All it would take is a couple of major civil rights figures to say, “Hey, this is going to happen, either prioritize our issues over all your other pet issues in this cycle or we walk.” That’ll get results. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/25 "2015-08-11T13:05:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This is why government working well matters. It’s one thing to complain about police violence. It’s another to figure out the root cause: arrogant government employees and a culture of no accountability. > > Big city Democrats tend to allow a certain level of corruption and stupidity, and won’t crack down because the public employee unions fund their campaigns. You’re not aware that government agencies are subject to audits? You’re not aware of GASB? You’re obviously never had to justify your procedures to auditors. Let me tell you, they’re thorough. If your agency receives federal funding, not only do you have to deal with state auditors, you have do deal with federal auditors as well. This is all well and good. To say that government workers have no accountability just doesn’t square with the facts. I think you overestimate the influence of public employee unions by several orders of magnitude. Their political contributions are dwarfed by those of the corporate elite. Back to topic, the BLM folks can work within the Democratic Party for effective change, or they can throw their support to the party that tries their damndest to keep them from voting. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/26 "2015-08-11T13:11:43Z")
In my view, Democrats aren’t the answer, but neither are Republicans or any third party candidate. The problem isn’t, in general, one about whether or not the appropriate laws or policies are in place. The problem is we’re charging under-trained, undisciplined, and ill-motivated people with understanding and enforcing laws and being able to react appropriately in tense situations. There isn’t a magic pill to this situation. And I think the sort of situation highlighted in the OP actually has the opposite effect of making people frustrated with the situation rather than creating allies. This is a problem that needs to be fixed from the bottom up. We need more people who ARE good candidates for cops to be encouraged to become cops, and we need cops themselves to get this idea of “protecting their own” to go the way of other obnoxious sentiments. If a cop is corrupt, incompetent, undisciplined, uneducated, untrained, racist, homophobic, etc. then they have a duty to NOT protect him when those attributes come to light. We also need to, as a society, stop sensationalizing stories and withholding judgment until facts come to light. Sometimes a situation looks REALLY bad a first, as presented to the public, and further facts come to light. Maybe a white cop shoots a black kid on camera and that video goes viral, people SHOULD get upset anytime a cop uses potentially lethal force, but that anger should be funneled toward finding the truth and bringing justice to the wrong doer, and when that happens, we should celebrate, and when it doesn’t THEN we should outrage. But that energy is misguided when it happens beforehand. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we need to make an effort to train our youth, regardless of race, about what their rights are and how to handle confrontations, or better yet, how to avoid them altogether. Even many of these situations where the cop was completely in the wrong in the level of force he used, it’s still possible that they could have been defused or avoided with some knowledge on the part of the victim. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/27 "2015-08-11T14:03:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You’re not aware that government agencies are subject to audits? You’re not aware of GASB? You’re obviously never had to justify your procedures to auditors. Let me tell you, they’re thorough. If your agency receives federal funding, not only do you have to deal with state auditors, you have do deal with federal auditors as well. This is all well and good. To say that government workers have no accountability just doesn’t square with the facts. Sure, and police have to account for every round fired, and because of this, police officers get fired left and right for improperly discharging their weapons. Oh wait, that’s not what happens at all. > [@](#): > > Back to topic, the BLM folks can work within the Democratic Party for effective change, or they can throw their support to the party that tries their damndest to keep them from voting. First, what I said IS the topic, even if Democrats would fervently wish it wasn’t. Secondly, putting their votes up for grabs would make Republicans a lot more solicitous. It would also put an end to the voting wars and return things to the way they used to be, when voter ID was both uncontroversial and no one was really trying to hard to tighten such laws. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/28 "2015-08-11T14:44:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Sure, and police have to account for every round fired, and because of this, police officers get fired left and right for improperly discharging their weapons. > > Oh wait, that’s not what happens at all. They may have to account for every round. That they aren’t getting arrested for murder is the result of cozy relationships between prosecutor and police, plus the culture of uniform worship in the US. > [@](#): > > First, what I said IS the topic, even if Democrats would fervently wish it wasn’t. Secondly, putting their votes up for grabs would make Republicans a lot more solicitous. It would also put an end to the voting wars and return things to the way they used to be, when voter ID was both uncontroversial and no one was really trying to hard to tighten such laws. Not gonna happen because the GOP is addicted to the racist vote. Plus they have discovered that suppressing minority votes is in their best interest, so they will continue to do so behind the fig leaf of voter fraud that nobody of intelligence believes in. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/29 "2015-08-11T14:53:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They may have to account for every round. That they aren’t getting arrested for murder is the result of cozy relationships between prosecutor and police, plus the culture of uniform worship in the US. This is a problem that occurs throughout government bureaucracies. I’m well aware of auditors, I eagerly eat up IG and GAO reports(at least the summaries, I do have a life), but in the end, things don’t change and people rarely get fired. It’s a way for politicians to say there are watchdogs without those watchdogs actually being able to do anything that might make the politicians uncomfortable, such as firing major campaign donors or upsetting the unions they rely on for cash. And yes, I know corporate cash is bigger, but Democrats especially love that public union money. Here’s a prime example: the war within the Democratic Party over education reform. You’ve got people like Michelle Rhee on one side trying to reform things to make schools work better for students, and then you’ve got the teachers’ unions with their powerful Democratic supporters prioritizing the teachers’ interests over the students. And students continue to fail, yet teachers never get fired for being poor teachers. > [@](#): > > Not gonna happen because the GOP is addicted to the racist vote. Plus they have discovered that suppressing minority votes is in their best interest, so they will continue to do so behind the fig leaf of voter fraud that nobody of intelligence believes in. If the black vote is available, you’ll see a pretty quick change in Republican attitudes. But you do hit on a problem that Democrats have. As much as they’ve spent the last 50 years claiming to be the champion of the minority communities, they can’t actually prioritize their issues because they too, are addicted to white votes and know that running a campaign centered on minority issues would sink them. So they tell African-Americans, shut up, sit down, and be patient, we’ll get to you when it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/30 "2015-08-11T15:57:10Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > This is a problem that needs to be fixed from the bottom up. We need more people who ARE good candidates for cops to be encouraged to become cops, and we need cops themselves to get this idea of “protecting their own” to go the way of other obnoxious sentiments. If a cop is corrupt, incompetent, undisciplined, uneducated, untrained, racist, homophobic, etc. then they have a duty to NOT protect him when those attributes come to light. > > We also need to, as a society, stop sensationalizing stories and withholding judgment until facts come to light. We also need IMO to stop sensationalizing stories and condemning cops _after_ the facts have come to light and the cops have been exonerated. Michael Brown was a nasty violent thug. Using his case to bash the cops or complain about racism is counter-productive. Because using his case to condemn the police or white society, when it has been made clear that Darren Wilson **didn’t do anything wrong** just pushes cops to retreat behind the blue wall of silence. Cops ought to be completely open and transparent about what they do. If they are, and it turns out they followed the law to the letter, when the Black Lives Matter people point to it as an example of institutional racism, then the Black Lives Matter need to be told to go pound sand. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/31 "2015-08-11T16:22:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Michael Brown was a nasty violent thug. Using his case to bash the cops or complain about racism is counter-productive. Because using his case to condemn the police or white society, when it has been made clear that Darren Wilson **didn’t do anything wrong** just pushes cops to retreat behind the blue wall of silence. Not everyone lives in the same Manichean world you do, **Shodan**. Many of us are capable of recognizing that Michael Brown likely committed a robbery, got into a physical altercation with Wilson, and had not surrendered at the time he was shot. Those facts make him less of an ideal poster-boy then some of these other cases. But they don’t mean that his case did not demonstrate any of the institutional problems that BLM is fighting. For example, the decision to shoot Brown was–while potentially legally justified, though it’s hard to say for certain–unnecessary. If he was white, he would probably be alive, because he would not have seemed as threatening to Wilson. It also showed how important it is to have video in such encounters. And the investigation and prosecution process that followed was a complete farce. If we treated black criminals the way Ferguson treated Wilson then we wouldn’t have a mass incarceration problem in this country. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/32 "2015-08-11T16:23:36Z")
No, we’d just have civilians getting away with the same things the cops do: gunning people down in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/33 "2015-08-11T17:40:58Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I understand the quote comes from the BLM website. What part of the quote talks about heckling and shouting down public speeches? And how are we getting from that to public rioting? I don’t see any of that behavior advocated in the quote you pulled, which looks quite reasonable and progressive to me. The videos show the actions of BLM. The quoted part was BLM’s description of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/34 "2015-08-11T18:20:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > If he was white, he would probably be alive, because he would not have seemed as threatening to Wilson. If a white man reached into a police car to try to steal the cop’s gun and then later ran at the cop rather than surrendering, he would be just as threatening and just as dead. > [@](#): > > It also showed how important it is to have video in such encounters. Brown reached into the vehicle from the side. This means that neither a body cam nor a dash cam would have been been in a position to film the first altercation. A dash cam could not have filmed the second altercation either because Brown ran to the rear of the vehicle and not the front, while a body cam might have been able to but only if it was not dislodged from Wilson’s shoulder when Brown reached across his body. > [@](#): > > If we treated black criminals the way Ferguson treated Wilson then we wouldn’t have a mass incarceration problem in this country. What, you mean if we started burning down our own neighbourhoods demanding an innocent man be brought to justice? There is nothing admirable or sane about how Ferguson treated Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/35 "2015-08-11T18:30:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If a white man reached into a police car to try to steal the cop’s gun and then later ran at the cop rather than surrendering, he would be just as threatening and just as dead. **Richard Parker** didn’t make mention of how much of a threat anyone was, tho, so you are arguing against a strawman. We have solid evidence that his statement is correct, and if we apply the appropriate qualifier to yours, that your amended statement would be contrary to the factual evidence: black men are, in fact, perceived as a greater threat than white men, regardless the actual level of threat present. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/36 "2015-08-11T19:43:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If a white man reached into a police car to try to steal the cop’s gun and then later ran at the cop rather than surrendering, he would be just as threatening and just as dead. I accept neither your factual characterizations nor your conclusion. As to the facts, what is clear from the witness accounts and forensic evidence is that Brown did have an altercation with Wilson and likely had not surrendered. The rest is your selective crediting of the evidence, including the testimony of the accused and the testimony of an avowed racist. As to the conclusion, it’s obviously speculative. But plenty of white people do much more (objectively) threatening things and don’t get shot, while it is common for black people to get shot for much less. The best explanation for this phenomenon–in part because it is backed by science–is that people tend to overestimate the threat posed by black men (and black children). > [@Grumman](#): > > Brown reached into the vehicle from the side. This means that neither a body cam nor a dash cam would have been been in a position to film the first altercation. A dash cam could not have filmed the second altercation either because Brown ran to the rear of the vehicle and not the front, while a body cam might have been able to but only if it was not dislodged from Wilson’s shoulder when Brown reached across his body. Notwithstanding your absurd ad hoc points here (“only if it was not dislodged from Wilson’s shoulder when Brown reached across his body”), the incident points to the need for cameras regardless of whether cameras would have captured this incident because it underscores the unreliability of eyewitness testimony of both the cops and others–as has been repeatedly shown in the many incidents since this in which the cop’s version does not match the visual evidence. > [@Grumman](#): > > What, you mean if we started burning down our own neighbourhoods demanding an innocent man be brought to justice? There is nothing admirable or sane about how Ferguson treated Wilson. This is just empty rhetoric that I have little interest in. I was referring to the investigative process and the way the grand jury was presented with the case. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/37 "2015-08-11T20:01:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But they don’t mean that his case did not demonstrate any of the institutional problems that BLM is fighting. Actually, his case did not demonstrate any institutional problem. > [@](#): > > For example, the decision to shoot Brown was–while potentially legally justified, though it’s hard to say for certain–unnecessary. If he was white, he would probably be alive, because he would not have seemed as threatening to Wilson. It also showed how important it is to have video in such encounters. And the investigation and prosecution process that followed was a complete farce. This kind of thinking is so completely divorced from the facts of the case as to demonstrate the issue. If an individual or a group repeats statements already shown to be wrong, that does not highlight any issue of institutional racism. It just shows who are the people to take seriously, and who aren’t. > [@](#): > > I accept neither your factual characterizations nor your conclusion The problem is, facts don’t go away if you don’t accept them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/38 "2015-08-11T20:23:26Z")
That entire post amounts to “nuh uh.” It is entirely devoid of actual content, other than to note that you disagree with me, which of course I am just shocked to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/39 "2015-08-11T20:36:27Z")
Not so much disagree as point out that you are factually incorrect. Unless you would like to take a shot at proving that if Michael Brown were white, and he was walking down the middle of the street ten minutes off robbing a store and assaulting a clerk, with the stolen goods in his hand, and when he punched Wilson in the face, tried to grab his gun, and then charged at a police officer, that Wilson would not have found that threatening. After all, when someone punches you in the face, it isn’t the fact that he outweighs you by eighty pounds that makes it threatening - it is whether he is black or white. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446/40 "2015-08-12T00:09:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not so much disagree as point out that you are factually incorrect. You didn’t say anything that **Grumman** didn’t above. And I responded to him with some specificity, which you simply ignored. Like **Grumman** , you choose to believe weakly substantiated facts that support your position, and ignore those well-substantiated facts that challenge your position. In terms of objectivity, you are no better than the protestors who choose to believe a minority of the witnesses and cherry-pick the physical evidence. Remember when you believed that Brown had fractured Wilson’s orbital? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-blm-protesters-right-that-the-democratic-party-is-not-the-answer/727446.md?page=3)