Are the concessions made by the Founding Fathers morally reprehensible?

[Captain_Amazing]

@clairobscur

I don’t understand the intended meaning of this sentence.

Oh, I was just making a joke. From your quote (bolding mine)

GW spoke of Ona’s “ingratitude,” of her leaving “without the least provocation,” of her being treated more “like a child than a servant,” of her being duped by a Frenchman - the classic rationalizations of an aggrieved master.

[sailor]

@mhendo

Has it ever occurred to you that plenty of the Americans willing to make moral judgments about historical figures might also be critical of the aspects of American society that you mention here?

I know full well that plenty of Americans are also critical of aspects of American culture. I never denied that so you are contradicting a straw man. What I said is that American culture today, taken as a whole, has very little understanding or forgiveness of other cultures or even of its own past culture and yet sees no problem with its own moral shortcomings of today. The fact that a minority of Americans sees things differently does not deny or contradict the fact that American culture as a whole is a certain way.

this sort of stupid generalization

well, I find your post even more stupid. Utterly stupid. Stupid beyond any redeeming value. Stupid elevated to a quintillion bazillion. So there.

[Human_Action]

@sailor

I know full well that plenty of Americans are also critical of aspects of American culture. I never denied that so you are contradicting a straw man. What I said is that American culture today, taken as a whole, has very little understanding or forgiveness of other cultures or even of its own past culture and yet sees no problem with its own moral shortcomings of today. The fact that a minority of Americans sees things differently does not deny or contradict the fact that American culture as a whole is a certain way.

So, Americans are bad because they don’t understand or forgive other cultures for their perceived moral shortcomings.

What are you doing, if not failing to understand or forgive another culture for its percieved moral shortcomings?

[mhendo]

@sailor

I know full well that plenty of Americans are also critical of aspects of American culture. I never denied that so you are contradicting a straw man. What I said is that American culture today, taken as a whole, has very little understanding or forgiveness of other cultures or even of its own past culture and yet sees no problem with its own moral shortcomings of today. The fact that a minority of Americans sees things differently does not deny or contradict the fact that American culture as a whole is a certain way.

From your earlier post:

@sailor

And yet American culture today compared to other advanced, western cultures, is extremely individualistic, selfish, greedy, violent. And no one seems to feel the disconnect. A culture where people have no guaranteed health care and if you can’t afford it that’s your problem, not mine. A culture where lots of people are locked up in prisons and society is just fine with that. A culture extremely xenophobic which wants to keep others out at all costs because they might depress wages. **No one cares if those people are starving. **That’s their problem. Just don’t let them in. Keep them out or lock them up. Forever if need be.

Emphasis mine.

You’re a smart guy, and i generally find your contributions here to be excellent. And many of my Australian and British and Canadian friends who indulge in stupid, reflexive, simplistic generalizations about the United states are also smart and (usually) thoughtful people. We all have our little blind spots, and i guess this is yours.

[sailor]

@Human_Action

So, Americans are bad because they don’t understand or forgive other cultures for their perceived moral shortcomings.

Who said “bad”? Not me. All I am saying is that I find a discrepancy between the guilt and comdemnation of past slavery and the selfish attitudes of today. Just a perceived contradiction. No moral judgment included.

If I see a church lady going on about Christian love and then I see her selfishly doing harm to her neighbor I notice the contradiction. She may be bad. She may be stupid. She may not even see the contradiction. Humans are like that. It even seems like sometimes, the more evil the person, the more they preach about how Christian they are.

So I am just saying I do not understand this need to overanalyze or feel guilty or atone for past slavery. Different time, different values. It is in the past.

But for a culture which dwells so much over these things it is strange that then it is so selfish in its attitudes towards its neighbors today. I just perceive a contradiction.

What are you doing, if not failing to understand or forgive another culture for its percieved moral shortcomings?

There is nothing to forgive. I cannot “forgive” America and America has no use for my forgiveness. But if instead of getting defensive you would care to explain then maybe I could better understand.

Why Is American culture so harsh when judging other cultures, including their own past culture, and yet so lenient with its own selfishness today?

Again, I am not judging, I am not accusing, I am just pointing out what seems to me like quite contradictory.

[Human_Action]

@sailor

Who said “bad”? Not me. All I am saying is that I find a discrepancy between the guilt and comdemnation of past slavery and the selfish attitudes of today. Just a perceived contradiction. No moral judgment included.

If I see a church lady going on about Christian love and then I see her selfishly doing harm to her neighbor I notice the contradiction. She may be bad. She may be stupid. She may not even see the contradiction. Humans are like that. It even seems like sometimes, the more evil the person, the more they preach about how Christian they are.

So I am just saying I do not understand this need to overanalyze or feel guilty or atone for past slavery. Different time, different values. It is in the past.

But for a culture which dwells so much over these things it is strange that then it is so selfish in its attitudes towards its neighbors today. I just perceive a contradiction.

“Selfish” is a moral judgment. “Individualistic, greedy, [and] violent” are moral judgments.

As for why we dwell on slavery…probably because about 12% of our population is descended from slaves, because 1865 wasn’t that long ago, and because the divisions between the former slaves and the white majority persist in countless ways.

@sailor

There is nothing to forgive. I cannot “forgive” America and America has no use for my forgiveness. But if instead of getting defensive you would care to explain then maybe I could better understand.

Why Is American culture so harsh when judging other cultures, including their own past culture, and yet so lenient with its own selfishness today?

Again, I am not judging, I am not accusing, I am just pointing out what seems to me like quite contradictory.

Why are you being so harsh when judging American culture? It’s likely the same impulse: it’s easy and painless to point out the perceived shortcomings of another group. More than painless, in fact, it’s downright enjoyable, as it highlights one’s own perceived moral superiority.

[sailor]

Wow. Sorry of I touched a nerve.

[Human_Action]

@sailor

Wow. Sorry of I touched a nerve.

Uh huh. So I can either agree with you, or disagree openly but secretly know you’re right. :rolleyes:

[clairobscur]

@Captain_Amazing

Oh, I was just making a joke. From your quote (bolding mine)

Ah, OK. I didn’t get it (obviously).