# Are the Democrats fooking up the border wall issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 23, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583 "2018-12-23T20:02:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/41 "2018-12-25T05:03:04Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Exactly. And most of Trump’s supporters aren’t rational so it’s all the more important to appeal to their emotions. Can you imagine how people would respond if the Dems said Trump was actually weak on border security because he was using outdated tech that cost 20x much and was 1/3 as effective? Turn the tables on that fucker. I’d love to see how Trump responded to the notion that he was actually weak on the issue. Trump supporters have already drank his kool-aid. Truth won’t sway them. Lies won’t sway them. They will follow their Beloved Leader until the end. So if Democrats tried to appeal to Trump voters by being as stupid as Trump, they’d fail. And they’d lose all of the voters who support the Democrats because they’re not as stupid as Trump. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/42 "2018-12-25T05:22:33Z")
In a Machiavellian sense the border wall/budget issue is a great stroke of luck for the Dems at this time. The last thing they should ever do is capitulate. The election just showed that the public opinion is against Trump and the Pubs. And the divisiveness is a long term winner for the Dems. Every month more and more Independents see the absurdity of anyone supporting Trump’s asinine “policy”, and decide they will never support an R again. Either Trump will cave now, or it will be a pissing contest till January, and the CR will pass House and Senate , and override his veto. He will have impotently stomped his foot for a month for nothing at all, and put another nail in his own coffin. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/43 "2018-12-27T05:53:11Z")
According to [538](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo), Trump’s disapproval rating is sharply up to 53.3 in the past couple weeks and approval rating is down to 41.4. Looks like a win for the Dems to oppose the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/44 "2018-12-27T10:17:49Z")
They should propose a law to arrest the heads of companies that hire illegal workers and bundle it with the wall funding. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/45 "2018-12-27T10:37:54Z")
Has nobody mentioned [the views of the White House Chief of Staff on his boss’s Wall](https://www.dailywire.com/news/39626/old-audio-surfaces-which-mick-mulvaney-calls-frank-camp)? > [@Mike Mulvaney](#): > > [The border wall plan poses] A bunch [of challenges]. I’ve never been in the boxcar caucus you know, ship them home in boxcars and let the Lord sort them out. The fence is an easy thing to sell politically. It’s an easy thing for someone who doesn’t follow the issue very closely to say, “Well, that will just solve everything. Build a fence.” > … to just say, “Build the darn fence,” and have that be the end of an immigration discussion is **absurd and almost childish for someone running for president to take that simplistic a view.** > … **It is pablum that politicians like to feed people** in order to tell people what they want to hear as they’re trying to get them to vote for them. It’s hard to tell people that things are hard to fix, but building a fence is not going to be the be-all and end-all to our immigration problems. > … > Yes, I am supporting Donald Trump, but I’m doing so despite the fact that **I think he’s a terrible human being**. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/46 "2018-12-27T11:57:15Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Am I the only one that thinks this is a critical PR fight for the Democrats as they take over the house on the first? Even though a slim majority of Americans are against the border wall, the Democrats seem purely obstructionist in their efforts and I get the feeling a prolonged shut-down will be blamed on them. I certainly think the dems were right to vote against the budget bill, but now they need to get out there and plug hard for their own alternative vision of border security. They should be talking about how a wall is a medieval solution to a 21st century problem and about how satellite and drone technology would work better, (don’t know if that’s true but marketing often isn’t) and the technology would keep getting better, while a wall will only get worse. It just seems like the Dems have absolutely no grand strategy. I think they were right to keep quiet about Trump so as to not wake the toothless uneducated beasts for the mid-terms, but now is the time to strike and take this fucker down. I really don’t know what else can be said about the border wall that hasn’t already been said. Except for Trump’s hardcore faithful, a majority of people understand that building a wall isn’t necessarily the answer. The Democrats should be pointing out that the shutdown, from their perspective, has as much to do with Donald Trump’s bad faith in negotiations. He blatantly lied to Schumer and Pelosi when he said he’d take blame for the shutdown. He blatantly lied to members of his own party when he said he’d sign a temporary stopgap (it’s not like he was agreeing to a permanent solution). Outgoing Senator Bob Corker already said it: this is Trump trying to look like a fighter. Obviously Dems don’t want shutdowns and they don’t want workers going unpaid, but this is on Donald Trump’s chaotic presidency and no one else. I’d be disappointed if Dems were to cave in to Trump’s demands. If the shutdown lasts long enough, the economy will probably start to suffer - already has in the markets. Maybe that’s what needs to happen for some of Trump’s holdouts to start getting the picture. Not that his true base ever will, but perhaps some of the right-leaning independents will finally demand that honesty prevail over political thuggery. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/47 "2018-12-27T12:03:47Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Master negotiator turned down a DACA for the Wall deal earlier this year. Master negotiator now say’s he’ll take less than $5B. > > We all know the wall > a) won’t be paid by Mexico > b) is a band aid on the bullet wound of border security (ok, maybe stupid analogy, but the wall won’t secure the entire border worth jack) > c) will cost a lot more than $5B > > Master negotiator, who has shown he can’t negotiate jack shit, is showing everyone his busted flush and asking why aren’t the Dems coming to the Grift House to do a deal? > > I hope the Dems don’t negotiate with terrorists, especially as President Bone Spurs is a vulnerable sloth with a big target on his fat ass. And if Dems cave and agree to less than $5B, master negotiator will probably reverse himself and demand $5B, and thus we’re back in the same spot. Master negotiator can’t be trusted - that’s _the_ issue. Master negotiator’s capriciousness and lack of integrity isn’t just a political issue anymore; it’s becoming an economic issue, as markets are increasingly worried about this presidency - and with good reason. Markets often worry about the rationality of the markets. It’s their faith in institutions that ultimately give investors and consumers a sense of calm. In 2018, markets are worried that this president is going to fatally undermine faith in the market - again, with good reason. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/48 "2018-12-27T15:44:05Z")
DJT doesn’t care what’s good for the country. > [@@realDonaldTrump](#): > > Do the Dems realize that most of the people not getting paid are Democrats? He just likes to thumb his nose at the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/49 "2018-12-27T15:45:53Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I really don’t know what else can be said about the border wall that hasn’t already been said. Except for Trump’s hardcore faithful, a majority of people understand that building a wall isn’t necessarily the answer. … But even phrasing it like that is problematic. The answer to what? It accepts that there is a significant unaddressed immigrant problem that requires a new answer, which the vast majority of Americans do not understand there really is not. A big question for the Democratic side is whether to debate that narrative (a debate which has the facts on their side but which they will still likely lose and which will rally his supporters more than anything) or to frame the discussion on what is the best answer to the (not particularly real) problem (not The Big Beautiful Wall). Which is better for the Democratic side to do? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/50 "2018-12-27T17:39:27Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > From a non-emotional financial perspective, fighting the wall makes sense. > [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Exactly. _And most of Trump’s supporters aren’t rational **so it’s all the more important to appeal to their emotions** _. Can you imagine how people would respond if the Dems said Trump was actually weak on border security because he was using outdated tech that cost 20x much and was 1/3 as effective? Turn the tables on that fucker. I’d love to see how Trump responded to the notion that he was actually weak on the issue. You seem to have a bit of a disconnect here. The America-hating fuckstick’s supporters are _unreachable_, regardless of the avenue of appeal. Best that they be written off as a lost cause, and then have the shit marginalized out of them so that they become as negligible a factor as they should have been from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/51 "2018-12-27T20:01:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But even phrasing it like that is problematic. The answer to what? It accepts that there is a significant unaddressed immigrant problem that requires a new answer, which the vast majority of Americans do not understand there really is not. > > A big question for the Democratic side is whether to debate that narrative (a debate which has the facts on their side but which they will still likely lose and which will rally his supporters more than anything) or to frame the discussion on what is the best answer to the (not particularly real) problem (not The Big Beautiful Wall). > > Which is better for the Democratic side to do? At this stage of the game, I don’t think it’s politically savvy to try to make the case that, not only don’t we need a wall, we don’t even need to treat the immigration issue as a problem. (Even if it happens to be true.) The issue has been on the front burner so long that arguing it’s not really an issue will seem Pollyanna-ish. Best to frame the discussion along the lines of “better border security approaches than a wall” and, one would hope, advancing that discussion toward a more humane, sensible approach to immigration once we have a non-insane president. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/52 "2018-12-27T21:15:56Z")
I think hitting the issue at its root is the best way to fight the wall. So long as immigration is seen, without real facts, as an ongoing problem, then solutions that can’t work in fact can be seen as solutions. But when we can say that immigration rates have stabilized to something we can tolerate indefinitely, then we can stop panicking. Then the argument that the wall makes little difference can perhaps be heard. But I think the real problem is folks misunderstanding Jack Nicholson’s speech in _A Few Good Men._ He was supposed to be full of crap; a lot of viewers didn’t get that, so they went to build up and maintain his imagined “world with walls.” ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/53 "2018-12-29T14:12:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So long as immigration is seen, without real facts…" Right - [no problem here](https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/28/seven-arrested-help-cop-killer-suspect/). ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/54 "2018-12-29T18:09:15Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Right - [no problem here](https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/28/seven-arrested-help-cop-killer-suspect/). Do you have any facts available as to how he or his associates came to be in the country? Or are you just fearmongering hoping people will ignore the actual issue and assume a wall would have made a difference? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/55 "2018-12-29T18:09:34Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Right - [no problem here](https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/28/seven-arrested-help-cop-killer-suspect/). The U.S.A. has Millions of criminals, and many Millions of immigrants. And one of the immigrants committed a crime? :eek: :smack: Stop the presses!! This defies all laws of probability! ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/56 "2018-12-29T19:54:54Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Right - [no problem here](https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/28/seven-arrested-help-cop-killer-suspect/). “Cherry picking” is a form of [logical fallacy](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/65/Cherry-Picking) in argumentation where an exceptional example is selected because [the facts in aggregate do not support a position](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/19/two-charts-demolish-the-notion-that-immigrants-here-illegally-commit-more-crime/?utm_term=.8c5cc008385b). Thank you for providing the class with a prime example of this type of fallacy. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/57 "2018-12-29T20:32:02Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Right - [no problem here](https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/28/seven-arrested-help-cop-killer-suspect/). 46 other officers were [shot and killed in the line of duty this year.](https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/12/us/officer-shooting-deaths-2018-trnd/index.html) Why are their deaths of no importance?? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/58 "2018-12-29T22:43:08Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > Right - [no problem here](https://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/12/28/seven-arrested-help-cop-killer-suspect/). Immigrants cause fewer crimes than born-Americans, including illegal immigrants (if we ignore the “illegal entry/overstay of visa” crime that 100% of them have committed). From that illustrious lefty publication, the [Cato Institute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute): [https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant](https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant) ---
**Author:** ![catflea12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@catflea12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catflea12)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/59 "2018-12-30T17:03:41Z")
Besides, being in the US illegally is a misdemeanor, not a felony, so people shouldn’t act like it’s the crime of the century. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583/60 "2019-01-03T20:21:20Z")
I will say, there are three major points that should be brought up by the Democrats, none of which I have heard: 1. Trump employs illegal immigrants, so it’s no big surprise that he’d rather build a bridge to nowhere, in terms of stopping illegal immigration, rather than working on legislation like e-verify. He clearly has no genuine interest in stopping illegal immigration, beyond making it sound like he does. 2. For further proof on that, one can compare how much immigration dropped, as a percentage, under Obama versus under Trump. Under Obama, it was reduced by 2/3rds. Under Trump, it has remained constant. 3. Trump is a famously corrupt property developer with ties to the mafia and a habit of creating sham companies to funnel money into, during large construction efforts. So, again, given that we all know that the wall is not liable to be effective in any particular way against illegal immigration, we have to ask why the man wants it so much? So whether the Democrats are so far winning, they’re really failing to do the best that they can in the fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-democrats-fooking-up-the-border-wall-issue/826583.md?page=4)