# Are the Dems and media becoming over-invested in Trump/Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823 "2017-03-10T01:12:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/41 "2017-03-10T19:11:49Z")
I strongly suspect that the Democrats are headed for a major disaster with this Russian scandal. If it doesn’t end up having some real meat, Trump’s going to shrug it off and any future investigations are going to be tainted by it becoming a real flop. I don’t see any solid evidence of the kind of grand collusion that the more rabid Trump opponents think is a certainty, what I’ve seen is speculation based on a big items that don’t point to collusion (like the Russian hacking of the DNC), padded out with a ton of completely useless facts like"Trump says positive things about Putin!" (which only shows that he likes and admires a strongman), highly speculative like “people in Trump’s circle talked to Russians” (which is explained by things like business interests)… > [@Ravenman](#): > > So what were campaign aides talking about with the Russians? Did those conversations violate the Logan Act? Seems like we should know. or really weird like digging up a law that’s only been used for one indictment and no convictions in two centuries. Seriously, the more people harp on ‘violations of the Logan Act’, the more I think the whole case lacks any substance at all. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/42 "2017-03-10T19:17:53Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I strongly suspect that the Democrats are headed for a major disaster with this Russian scandal. I agree. That is why they should be encouraged in that endeavor. Think “Fitzmas”. Worked out really well for Democrats, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/43 "2017-03-10T19:36:21Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > The shameless red-baiting and anti-Russian bigotry of the Democrats will indeed backfire… Oh, this is really quite rich indeed. I’m imagining the responses from the likes of Carl Hatch, Joe McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, Dick Nixon, Reagan, etc., if their contemporaries on the Left accused them of simple “anti-Russian bigotry.” ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/44 "2017-03-10T19:38:52Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > So Trump changed his party’s platform, as the candidate for president from that party. Later on a former MI6 agent claimed he was bribed to do so with a ridiculous quantity of stock in Rosneft, for which there is no evidence. > > Later, Trump won the election and it was claimed Russian hackers helped with this, although there is no evidence for this. Wikileaks said they never got any information from Russian hackers, and there is no evidence to contradict them. The FBI report into Russian hacking spent most of its length talking about editorial stances taken by RT, and the rest talking about Russian hacking tools, which we now know are the tools of choice for the in-house hackers at the CIA, and Russian IP addresses which all turned out to be current or former Tor exit nodes. Tor being a system specifically designed to conceal your place of origin. Of course, the fact that the “hackers” were allegedly pretending to be Russian doesn’t prove they weren’t Russian, in the same way that someone wearing one of those rubber Nixon masks doesn’t prove that it isn’t really Nixon. But it doesn’t prove it is, either. You are either totally misunderstanding or misrepresenting just about everything here. I’m not even sure it’s worth responding to. 1. Russian hacking was discussed well before Trump won, including Trump openly encouraging them to continue hacking Democrats. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-government-officially-accuses-russia-of-hacking-campaign-to-influence-elections/2016/10/07/4e0b9654-8cbf-11e6-875e-2c1bfe943b66\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-government-officially-accuses-russia-of-hacking-campaign-to-influence-elections/2016/10/07/4e0b9654-8cbf-11e6-875e-2c1bfe943b66_story.html) 2. Wikileaks is not a reliable source of information. They don’t disclose sources, except when they do… which usually happens to be when they say something about sources to support Russian claims. 3. The Wikileaks claims that the CIA leaks show that CIA could have hacked the DNC are completely unsupported by the actual documents (which is often the case when breathless headlines from Wikileaks are repeated without first looking at the supporting documents). [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/09/opinion/the-truth-about-the-wikileaks-cia-cache.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/09/opinion/the-truth-about-the-wikileaks-cia-cache.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/45 "2017-03-10T19:51:25Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Think “Fitzmas”. Worked out really well for Democrats, didn’t it? That was 2005, right? Who won the 2006 elections? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/46 "2017-03-10T21:21:34Z")
Whether it’s a break-in at Watergate, Yellow Cake in Niger, or collusion with Russia, the weight of a scandal depends on how Americans feel about the country and their own lot in life. If Trump is somehow perceived as a successful president - even if it’s just the mere fact that the economy is doing well and he hasn’t done anything to derail its growth - then Russia won’t mean anything. The fact is, most people don’t really see Russia as an adversary – at least not now. The danger for Republicans is that Putin could storm Eastern Europe and start taking economic and political control away from the United States. But until that happens, even if there’s a “smoking gun,” it’s going to be difficult voters that a crime has been committed. Most Americans just aren’t that knowledgeable of nor invested in politics. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/47 "2017-03-10T21:44:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That was 2005, right? > > Who won the 2006 elections? It started in 2003. Who won the 2004 elections? The indictment of Scooter was in 2005. If the Russian investigation yields a grand jury indictment of a senior Trump official then maybe we can compare the two events. But I agree it’s quite odd that Okrahoma implies there was some kind of backfire. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/48 "2017-03-10T22:37:19Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > or really weird like digging up a law that’s only been used for one indictment and no convictions in two centuries. Seriously, the more people harp on ‘violations of the Logan Act’, the more I think the whole case lacks any substance at all. You realize that’s very similar to a description of the Hillary private server escapade, right? A law that hasn’t been applied in a century over “gross negligence” could be safely described as having an effect on the election even if you would agree there was no substance at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/49 "2017-03-10T23:36:31Z")
There does seem to be a lot of smoke, it seems reasonable to call for an investigation to see if there’s a fire. If there are investigations and they turn up nothing, I don’t want endless investigations but we haven’t gotten to that point yet. One worry though is that all the Russian connection stuff could overshadow much worse things that the Trump administration and the Republicans are doing, and that would be bad if that happened. > [@blindboyard](#): > > So Trump changed his party’s platform, as the candidate for president from that party. Perfectly reasonable for him to change the platform. But if I’m remembering correctly, literally the only change he requested was regarding Russia, and that makes it a little suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/50 "2017-03-11T03:50:25Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > [Here’s a long list of Trump-Russia connections with sources.](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DnQWKe9koRkG31bO3vGJdLjqlI5fPi4I7MRjWFTz3Y0/edit) The remarkable thing is how new info keeps coming out day to day. It’s hard to keep up. > > At this point about the only two possibilities are that Trump is a corrupt Russian patsy or the CIA engineered a brilliant false flag operation. Either one is pretty exciting. If it’s a false flag, it is absolutely brilliant. Not plausible, but if someone did manage it they’ve got amazing skills. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/51 "2017-03-11T04:00:58Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > So Trump changed his party’s platform, as the candidate for president from that party. > [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > Perfectly reasonable for him to change the platform. But if I’m remembering correctly, literally the only change he requested was regarding Russia, and that makes it a little suspicious. There’s also the fact the Trump repeatedly denied having anything to do with the platform change. Why not just say “I asked them to change the platform because I think it would be great it we could be friends with Russia. We could do great deals with Russia. Sending weapons to Ukraine could cause nuclear war. Nuclear war would be very bad!”? Instead, we got this total flat denial, which appears–shockingly enough!–to be a great big fat lie; in fact, Trump _was_ totally behind the platform change. That doesn’t mean there’s a scrambler phone in Trump Tower that Trump was using to call Moscow Center for instructions every night during the campaign. (“This is Agent Zolotój Dožd, calling for instructions!”) In itself, that denial doesn’t even mean that there was illegal/inappropriate/unpatriotic collusion between the Trump Campaign (and now the Trump Administration) and Russia. But the lie about Trump and the Ukraine plank in the platform _is_ very weird. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/52 "2017-03-11T04:20:59Z")
If the right wing really thought the Democrats and the media were going to end up looking bad over this, then they’d be urging them on to their destruction. But if the right wing is faking concern for the Democrats and the media and urging them to stop investigating for their own good, it just convinces me we should keep digging. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/53 "2017-03-11T12:38:32Z")
You know, “the right wing” might not know exactly what Trump’s Russia connections are either. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/54 "2017-03-11T17:27:00Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You realize that’s very similar to a description of the Hillary private server escapade, right? A law that hasn’t been applied in a century over “gross negligence” could be safely described as having an effect on the election even if you would agree there was no substance at all. It’s telling that you don’t even name the law here, while the comment I was referring to specifically mentioned ‘violations of the Logan act’. More than half a dozen people were charged under the Espionage Act (I’m guessing that’s the law you’re referring to) during Obama’s administration alone. A law that’s applied repeatedly and consistently, and gets indictments followed by plea bargains or convictions is not remotely like a law that has been around twice as long and never managed any convictions (or pleas) and only one single indictment. Also, there seems to be implicit claim in your post that the Russian Connection allegations are about as legitimate as the Clinton Email scandal. You might want to pick a better point of comparison if you’re not trying to undermine the Russian Connection idea. ---
**Author:** ![ckalli1998](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@ckalli1998](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ckalli1998)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/55 "2017-03-11T17:32:19Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > It’s telling that you don’t even name the law here, while the comment I was referring to specifically mentioned ‘violations of the Logan act’. More than half a dozen people were charged under the Espionage Act (I’m guessing that’s the law you’re referring to) during Obama’s administration alone. A law that’s applied repeatedly and consistently, and gets indictments followed by plea bargains or convictions is not remotely like a law that has been around twice as long and never managed any convictions (or pleas) and only one single indictment. > > Also, there seems to be implicit claim in your post that the Russian Connection allegations are about as legitimate as the Clinton Email scandal. You might want to pick a better point of comparison if you’re not trying to undermine the Russian Connection idea. The Logan Act was always an absurd and specious law. Why do you think in over two centuries, it has never landed a single conviction since it was adopted? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/56 "2017-03-11T17:35:38Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > It’s telling that you don’t even name the law here, while the comment I was referring to specifically mentioned ‘violations of the Logan act’. More than half a dozen people were charged under the Espionage Act (I’m guessing that’s the law you’re referring to) during Obama’s administration alone. A law that’s applied repeatedly and consistently, and gets indictments followed by plea bargains or convictions is not remotely like a law that has been around twice as long and never managed any convictions (or pleas) and only one single indictment. I just didn’t bother typing Espionage act. And if you had listened to Comey’s explanation as to why he wouldn’t recommend charges he specifically mentioned the part of the act that related to gross negligence which had been used once in a hundred years and that one time there was still more intent involved. > [@](#): > > Also, there seems to be implicit claim in your post that the Russian Connection allegations are about as legitimate as the Clinton Email scandal. You might want to pick a better point of comparison if you’re not trying to undermine the Russian Connection idea I don’t care which one or the other I undermine. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/57 "2017-03-11T18:46:35Z")
> [@ckalli1998](#): > > The Logan Act was always an absurd and specious law. Why do you think in over two centuries, it has never landed a single conviction since it was adopted? What other laws are the Trump Administration free to ignore in your opinion? I mean, other than all ethics laws; that’s a given. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/58 "2017-03-12T12:17:46Z")
The NYTimes is reporting that **Roger Stone** acknowledges contact with **Guccifer2.0** , the hacker often cited as involved with the DNC hack: [Trump Adviser Had Twitter Contact With Figure Tied to Russians - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/us/politics/roger-stone-trump-adviser-russia.html?hpw&rref=politics&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/59 "2017-03-12T13:54:39Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What other laws are the Trump Administration free to ignore in your opinion? I mean, other than all ethics laws; that’s a given. Trump supporters are okay with sexual assault and war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823/60 "2017-03-12T16:19:04Z")
Like the Death Of Gaddafi ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-dems-and-media-becoming-over-invested-in-trump-russia/781823.md?page=4)