# Are the French Conservatives "going American"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419 "2011-04-06T17:21:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/1 "2011-04-06T17:21:50Z")
Defintely more for the French dopers here (all three of them). So the Socialist party is organizing primaries to see who gets to be their candidate for the Presidential election. This is the second time they do this. …And Jean-François Copé, the head of the French Conservative party (the U.M.P.), who less than a month ago was vomiting his bile on Socialists when they dared to growl against bordering antisemetic attacks being made by major figures of the UMP against Dominique Strauss Khan, the probable candidate for the left for the election. Well, that very same Copé is now attacking the Socialist primary process saying that “to have registration files for voters” (a necessity for setting up primaries) “reminds us all of the Darkest Hours of our history” ( a very clichéd sentence used in France to refer to the Occupation period). The very same guy who didnt think that saying that “Strauss Khan doesnt represent the true roots of France” had any antisemitic connotations now think that having Socialist voters on files is akin to registering Jews before shipping them off to death camps. WTF is this, more and more our Conservatives are behaving like American Conservatives, that is they consider anything and everything “from the other side” should be attacked on and on. There used to be a thing called consensus and, lets just say it, manners. Seems like the new UMP strategy is to shit all over the place, in the hope that Socialists might slip on it. Are we becoming like those heathens across the Atlantic, that is it’s not a contest between political adversaries anymore but some kind of Holy War of civilization between political enemies? I really dont know what the fuck is the UMP thinks it’s doing there. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![\_mostly\_Harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_mostly\_Harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_mostly_Harmless)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/2 "2011-04-07T04:16:36Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > … WTF is this, more and more our Conservatives are behaving like American Conservatives, that is they consider anything and everything “from the other side” should be attacked on and on. … I am a conservative. Many of my friends are conservatives. I listen to the conservatives in Washington. I don’t see this phenomenon you’re talking about. While it is a popular tactic for our political opponents to level these kinds of charges at us I have to say that we don’t ‘hate’ people who are ‘other’. I really have no comment on what’s going on in France. Maybe they’re doing what you’re talking about, maybe not. But that is _not_ what American conservatives are doing or want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/3 "2011-04-07T14:23:19Z")
> [@](#): > > But that is not what American conservatives are doing or want to do. Maybe that’s not what rational conservatives are doing. But this… > [@](#): > > Strauss Khan doesnt represent the true roots of France …sounds exactly like what the loudest voices on the right have been saying about Obama for three years. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/4 "2011-04-07T15:11:54Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > WTF is this, more and more our Conservatives are behaving like American Conservatives, that is they consider anything and everything “from the other side” should be attacked on and on. Ah yes. The “intolerant American conservatives” meme. Funny, just this morning I was reading an article on Salon wherein the author expressed wonderment that she was capable of being friends with – gasp – a Republican. That while this person was a Fox-watcher and Palin-lover, she was indeed a true, good person May I share from the[comments](http://letters.salon.com/mwt/feature/2011/04/05/my_best_friend_is_a_republican/view/index1.html?order=asc) on that article? > [@](#): > > You’re friends with this person? Why? Political beliefs go to the soul, and conservatives have none. On top of that, they are unable to grasp – or care to grasp – the evidence of history or the very fabric of truth and reality. > > Dump. The. Hag. > [@](#): > > this woman is a fucking lunatic, the kind of person who, multiplied by millions, is destroying this country. > > And you? The type of ‘liberal’ who won’t take your own side in an argument. The type who, in remaining friends with this greed-head nitwit, enables her evil. > [@](#): > > Things you love about Janet… > > …is the price you demand to ignore her civic selfishness and willful ignorance. > [@](#): > > You’re shallow and have no standards > > It’s a moral issue. No one says Republicans can’t be “nice” and “caring.” Some republicans are even fairly funny. But I find it unbelievable that someone could be really close and true friends when one of them believes in and supports greed, selfishness and immorality – and the other one is a liberal. > > You must be really hard up for friends. I wouldn’t even spend time willingly with my own siblings who are right-wing religious zealots. Luckily there are _plenty_ of people out there to spend time with who don’t stand for “all the things I find bad and wrong in the world.” > [@](#): > > H.L. Mencken Said > > “I thank God I was not born a Republican”. Republicanism is not an intellectual choice. It is a biological disease. > > My dealings with conservatives always end up with one question: Where do they get the crap that they spout and do they actually believe it? > > And then I remember. They are born that way. > [@](#): > > It’s mind blowing .. > > That there are republicans that admit it in public. > > In fact I’m blown away that there are people who thinks there is a significant difference between the two major parties. > > What’s the next cost cutting idea? Gunning down seniors and driving over women and children on WIC, wouldn’t surprise me. > [@](#): > > I am certain your friend believes every word she says, but that does not mean she is not wrong. You made a statement in your essay that she is more well informed than many of your liberal friends, but yet I see no evidence of this fact. Is she presenting her view with more confidence and assertiveness than your left leaning friends? Is she actually presenting facts, or making opinion sound like fact? After I read the paragraph about her opinion on Planned Parenthood, I realized all she is doing is sprouting Fox News, Washington Times and the Murdock news empire, so how is this informed? Also, her wearing a tea party shirt to YOUR birthday party is the height of selfish and shitty behavior. Do you think she would be quite so understanding if you wore an Obama shirt to her residence? If you would really like to know what kind of friend you have, have an actual debate about a subject you feel passionately about. Do not back down, and continue to state it is your opinion. I bet she finally gets terrifically pissed at you and stops being your friend. > > Your instinct is right about this person; run don’t walk from this toxic human. Those were just highlights from the first three pages. There are 17. Now, please tell me again about how it’s a trait of “conservatives” and not, say, “people” to think “anything and everything “from the other side” should be attacked on and on.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/5 "2011-04-07T15:37:35Z")
The OP is talking about political leaders. You are talking about random dipshits commenting on a website. Brilliant comparison. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/6 "2011-04-07T15:42:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The OP is talking about political leaders. You are talking about random dipshits commenting on a website. Brilliant comparison. Uh huh. And liberal pols are \*nothing at all \*like their supporters. :rolleyes: It was an interesting juxtaposition in my morning, so I shared. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/7 "2011-04-07T15:46:41Z")
Sure, I’ll buy that. So every Congressional Republican thinks Obama was born in Kenya and that he’s secretly a Muslim. See how that works? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/8 "2011-04-07T16:06:11Z")
The thread opens with a mildly disguised rant and immediately descends into a pit of partisan flying brickbats. Capitaine Zombie, if you want to debate a comparison of French and U.S. politics or French and U.S. political parties, start a new thread with a bit less heat and a lot more fact. You will next find this thread in The BBQ Pit. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/9 "2011-04-07T16:27:00Z")
Same old tripe about conservatives: “Conservatives aren’t interested in consensus or compromise.” Translation: Conservatives don’t agree with us so we’re going to call you extremists until you do. ---
**Author:** ![Marquez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Marquez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marquez)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/10 "2011-04-07T18:43:55Z")
I have to say as someone who comes from the same side of the Atlantic (though on the other side of La Manche) as Capitaine Zombie, and from the outside looking in, the American right has never looked/acted so crazy as it does now. Everything just seems so vitriolic and hateful, much of which seems to stem from barely concealed racism towards Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/11 "2011-04-07T20:00:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The thread opens with a mildly disguised rant and immediately descends into a pit of partisan flying brickbats. > > Capitaine Zombie, if you want to debate a comparison of French and U.S. politics or French and U.S. political parties, start a new thread with a bit less heat and a lot more fact. You will next find this thread in The BBQ Pit. > > [/Modding] I was coming back here after reading \*\*(mostly) Harmless \*\*'s post when it was the only post, for while it is my opinion of the Am Republicans, I could of course understand that it wouldnt be an universally shared one. So, I was actually coming back to ask for the move to BBQ Pitt. I just didnt expect the bit of sanctimonious preaching. There’s nothing disguised here. What the fuck is a midly disguised rant that immediately becomes something else? If it’s \*mildly disguised \*it doesnt immediately turn into something else. I understand adjectives can really do wonders for a sentence, but usually more so when they have something to do with the subject, even remotely. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/12 "2011-04-07T22:46:34Z")
In other words, you posted a BBQ Pit rant in the wrong forum, and now you are ranting that I was not sufficiently nasty in pointing out that you posted the wrong garbage in the wrong place? Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/13 "2011-04-08T06:04:27Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Ah yes. The “intolerant American conservatives” meme. > > Funny, just this morning I was reading an article on Salon wherein the author expressed wonderment that she was capable of being friends with – gasp – a Republican. That while this person was a Fox-watcher and Palin-lover, she was indeed a true, good person The impression I got from the OP was one of associating xenophobia with conservative politics. I think this is probably more valid in Western Europe than it is in the U.S. There are undoubtedly some xenophobic American conservatives, and, I daresay, some on the other side who have xenophobic tendencies despite being progressive in most other respects. When I read of French ultraconservatives like Le Pen, the xenophobia seems to be a core element of their world view. By contrast, with most of the American right wing, xenophobia/racism, if there, is only a side issue, or else it’s something which is passively stated, for example by the fact that most of the Tea Party brigade seem to be white. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/14 "2011-04-08T07:12:17Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The impression I got from the OP was one of associating xenophobia with conservative politics. I think this is probably more valid in Western Europe than it is in the U.S. There are undoubtedly some xenophobic American conservatives, and, I daresay, some on the other side who have xenophobic tendencies despite being progressive in most other respects. When I read of French ultraconservatives like Le Pen, the xenophobia seems to be a core element of their world view. By contrast, with most of the American right wing, xenophobia/racism, if there, is only a side issue, or else it’s something which is passively stated, for example by the fact that most of the Tea Party brigade seem to be white. Le Pen isnt ultra-conservative, he is far right. He isnt part of the French Conservatives, though his ideology is seeping into the French Conservatives’ rethorics more and more these days. Anyway the question wasnt about how outrageous American Conservatives behave, but why the fuck does the French Right suddenly think it’s a good strategy, and they should adopt it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/15 "2011-04-08T08:15:31Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Le Pen isnt ultra-conservative, he is far right. Well, he \*is \*conservative. In that he conserves the good old ideology from the Pétain days. You know, back when the brownies knew their place and whatnot. As for why French neocons suddenly adopt xenophobic rethoric and the Big Lie: they’ve seen how well it works in the US. Have you seen just how many people buy that shit in America ? How far sheer Islamophobia can get you, how well accusing your enemy of your own sins works ? And since the French right is and has always been the party of “whatever works, damn the principles”… I mean, what else do you think the Rom and burqua hullaballoos were about ? Know how many burqua’d women there are in France today ? Less than 500. Hell of a Problem, right ? Sure needs the heavy hand of the law and a widely publicized decision to sort that shit out. Point is, that was just about courting FN voters. Used to be both sides of the Assembly shunned the fuckers. Now that they’re 15% of the (voting) public, weeeeell they’re just misunderstood aren’t they ? They’re not all bad, really.. This shit makes me ill, it really does. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/16 "2011-04-08T11:31:14Z")
Bah. You two are just jealous that Dominique Strôôôss-Kahn will never be as left-wing and _socialist_ as Marine Le Pen is :p. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/17 "2011-04-08T14:43:06Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > By contrast, with most of the American right wing, xenophobia/racism, if there, is only a side issue, or else it’s something which is passively stated, for example by the fact that most of the Tea Party brigade seem to be white. I would argue that the conservative stand on immigration is largely influenced by xenophobia. But be that as it may, I am far less interested in bickering about American politics which has been done to death on the dope, and more interested in the OP’s question about what is going on in France of which I know very little. ---
**Author:** ![\_mostly\_Harmless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_mostly\_Harmless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_mostly_Harmless)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/18 "2011-04-09T03:56:37Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I would argue that the conservative stand on immigration is largely influenced by xenophobia. Please do. As I cannot rebut a statement I will wait for your argument. In the meantime let me say that in the most general of terms anyone who uses race to make political arguments is misguided at best and a class-A shitbag at worst. It doesn’t matter if it’s spoken by Americans, French, or fucking Martians. Now I know that most people already agree with that sentiment but I felt it necessary to say because when you are on the right you learn very quickly that, much to your surprise, everything you say is racist. You, furthermore, learn that if you are white then by definition you hate everyone who has darker skin than you. These kinds of revelations lead us to feel the need to make disclaimers from time to time. So in reference to the OP I will say this: If French politicians are doing what you say, then they are wrong to do so. But it is not necessary to bring Americans into this especially when it involves mis-characterizing their intentions. How could you possibly know the motives of an American Conservative unless you are one? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/19 "2011-04-09T04:42:57Z")
> [@\_mostly\_Harmless](#): > > Please do. As I cannot rebut a statement I will wait for your argument. > > In the meantime let me say that in the most general of terms anyone who uses race to make political arguments is misguided at best and a class-A shitbag at worst. It doesn’t matter if it’s spoken by Americans, French, or fucking Martians. Now I know that most people already agree with that sentiment but I felt it necessary to say because when you are on the right you learn very quickly that, much to your surprise, everything you say is racist. You, furthermore, learn that if you are white then by definition you hate everyone who has darker skin than you. These kinds of revelations lead us to feel the need to make disclaimers from time to time. > > So in reference to the OP I will say this: If French politicians are doing what you say, then they are wrong to do so. But it is not necessary to bring Americans into this especially when it involves mis-characterizing their intentions. How could you possibly know the motives of an American Conservative unless you are one? Are you fucking joking me? You have to be an American Conservative to talk about them or have an opinion on them?! By the way, the question was exactly what is the reasoning the French right is having here? So, it was, from the start, a question about the motives, what I was describing is the behavior. And if you cant see how incredibly antagonistic American Conservatives have been for a few years now, I cant miraculously correct eyesight through the internet. It’s pretty clear that in both the cases of France and the US, I am talking about the politicians, not the voters. And the point wasnt that the French right has been tapping into the Front National’s ideological cesspool, but that the head of the French equivalent of the Conservatives is comparing the Socialists with the Nazis just because they plan on using some kind of voter files to set up their primaries. That coming from a guy who thought the French Socialists were disgusting to see antisemitism in any way in an attack on Strauss Khan’s unFrenchness. Sorry, but that reminds me exactly of what the Republicans have been doing ever since Obama became President (“he’s a Socialist”, “he’s Kenyan”, and on and on). That kind of attack was (and I hope, still is) considered totally out of place in French politics. And any French citizen would see it as a totally transparent bad faith attack, sullying way more the attacker than its intended target. Apparently, some people in the UMP thought basic ethics and manners are a loosing strategy. I was wondering how that thought could ever have formed in their mind, or how could they think no one will call their bullshit out. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419/20 "2011-04-09T04:56:57Z")
In France, some people actually _rioted_ when Sarkozy won the election so French politics going “American” would be an improvement. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-conservatives-going-american/577419.md?page=2)