# Are the French 'lazy'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861 "2013-03-13T21:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/1 "2013-03-13T21:39:01Z")
Apologies in advance, but I’m on travel atm so might not be able to post that much to the thread. I’ll try and get back as often as I can, and certainly I’ll be reading and following what I hope is a discussion on the article I’m going to link too in a sec. I also apologize for any formatting weirdness, but when I post from the iPad it never comes out quite right. Anyway, on to the discussion. Was reading [this](http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/02/22/france-labor-titan/?iid=obnetwork) article from CNN talking about an American executive and his comment to French officials. Basically, he’s talking about French labor practices and the stranglehold he is implying that French Unions have on the government and on business in France. I guess there was a bit of a blow up over this letter this guy wrote (no idea how big it was in France itself…any French 'dopers give a read on this?), but here are some things from the article: > [@](#): > > FORTUNE – The explosive reaction in France to a letter penned by a little-known U.S. tire executive, which questioned the productivity of French workers, has quickly gone from comical to troubling. Instead of opening a discussion in the country as to the possible merits of the executive’s views, blind nationalism overtook rational thought, creating an international incident. > > While the words used by Titan (TWI) chief executive Maurice “the Grizz” Taylor in his letter to a French official were clearly inflammatory, they contained an uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that France’s manufacturing base, indeed, its economy as a whole, has become dangerously uncompetitive. The country needs to quickly make some tough labor reforms if it ever intends on getting back on solid economic ground. > > Newspapers in France had a field day on Thursday bashing the “ugly American” who dared insult the economic integrity of “the great French Republic.” France’s industry minister, Arnaud Montebourg, said that Taylor’s letter, in which he colorfully spells out to French officials why he would not return to the negotiating table to acquire a troubled tire plant in northern France, as “ridiculous,” and that it displayed a “perfect ignorance” of the French economy. The real question for debate isn’t actually are the French lazy…I don’t think that’s really what this guy was getting at, but instead, are French labor practices strangling their industry and business, and what, if anything should they do? Or, is this not really an issue at all, and really everyone else needs to learn a lesson from the French and adopt their practices as much more enlightened? Some additional things from the article: > [@](#): > > Taylor doesn’t have a crystal ball, nor does he have knowledge of the future plans of a rival that is 20 times his company’s size, but he does have a point – France has a problem when it comes to productivity, especially in its manufacturing sector. The weak European economy has decreased demand for French industrial products in a big way and its companies are being held hostage to unions that command great power with the government. > > For example, Peugeot Citroën, France’s largest carmaker, just reported its biggest yearly loss ever earlier this month, shredding some 5 billion euros ($6.74 billion) in 2012. Car sales in Europe and France in 2012 were down 9% and 14%, respectively, from the previous year. Peugeot tried to close plants and lay off workers to adjust production levels to meet market demand, but its unions successfully stalled the implementation of the management’s austerity plan by taking the car company to court. Peugeot was allowed to cut production, but it was not allowed to lay off any of its workers until the court gave it “permission.” > [@](#): > > But the difficulty in hiring and firing workers is just one defect of the French labor system. Small businesses are particularly hurt by the 35-hour law, which forces employers to pay their hourly workers overtime if they work more than 35 hours a week. As a result, the French work fewer hours than just about anybody in the OECD. In fact, the average French employee worked just 1,476 hours in 2011, according to the latest data available from the OECD and the French labor department. In contrast, workers in the U.S. rocked 1,704 hours per year, 21% more than their counterparts in France. > [@](#): > > It is pretty clear at this point that doing business in France is not only getting more difficult, it is also getting less efficient and more expensive. France’s new Socialist President, Francois Hollande, is under extreme pressure to “fix” the French economy, but he will need help from his party to make it happen. Jean-Marc Ayrault, France’s prime minister, came under fire from his fellow Socialists when he told Le Parisien newspaper in October that the 35-hour work week has “caused difficulties” for small businesses. He quickly recanted the statement as other Socialist party members blasted him. Now, I’ll be the first to admit specific ignorance here…I don’t know more than generally about France (I’ve been there several times, but an IT engineers perspective isn’t exactly germane to the overall business viability), their labor laws, or how vibrant or not so vibrant their economy is…or how much of the problems specified in this article are systemic, or have to do with the general problems the EU is having. Any input would be helpful on this, especially from French 'dopers (though other European 'dopers would also be interesting to get their take) who want to give their insights on the issues. Thanks in advance, and sorry about it if I can’t fully participate. I’ve been really falling off lately on my ability to post as RL has increasingly taken over my limited free time, but I still enjoy reading other 'dopers thoughts, even when I disagree with them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/2 "2013-03-13T22:25:32Z")
I’ve spent quite a bit of time in France, and my experience is: Americans know how to work; The French know how to live. As for the 35 hr work-week, didn’t they get rid of that a few years ago because it didn’t work out well? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/3 "2013-03-13T22:32:24Z")
They have the 19th highest GDP per capita, so they’re the 19th most productive people on Earth (probably better then that actually, since some of the countries above them are petro-states or tax-havens). From memory, they come out as pretty close to #1 in GDP/worker-hour, so while they might take more vacation time, the French are arguably the most productive workers when they’re working when they aren’t on vacation. ETA: googling, France is #6 in GDP/worker-hour ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/4 "2013-03-13T22:42:52Z")
I work for a multinational HQ’ed outside Paris. We’re an upstream oil/gas contractor with offices in Houston, Calgary, London, Singapore, etc. And there are ex-pats from all over the world in each of the major centers. The workers in France do seem more efficient than we are in Houston. We certainly work many more hours, but we’re not especially more productive. They also get 5 weeks vacation in their employment contracts from the start (we don’t get 5 until year 10). I have heard the occasional gripe from some of them the few times I’ve gone over there that they need special permission to work longer hours, and it’s usually not granted. Our compatriots in London also say security escorts them out if they’re in the building past normal working hours. Our most profitable division is actually mostly in France along the Mediterranean coast. Based on conversations with friends at Schlumberger, their experience is similar. Of course, we’re a largish multinational, not a small business, oil/gas may be different from other industries, anecdote =/= data, and all the other usual disclaimers. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/5 "2013-03-14T10:39:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve spent quite a bit of time in France, and my experience is: Americans know how to work; The French know how to live. This. If you yanks weren’t so bloody arogant and chauvenistic, you might learn something important. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/6 "2013-03-14T11:13:39Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > If you yanks weren’t so bloody arogant and chauvenistic, you might learn something important. Please tell me you’re a hipster of the highest degree and the above statement was, like, ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/7 "2013-03-14T11:21:11Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I guess there was a bit of a blow up over this letter this guy wrote (no idea how big it was in France itself…any French 'dopers give a read on this?), but here are some things from the article: I’ve spent the last few months working in France and I saw it mentioned in several newspaper covers. The general reaction appeared to be along the lines of “what an asshole! Oh well, his loss :rolleyes:” In general, what little indignation there was didn’t last long. Needing permission from Labor courts is standard in Spain when there will be layoffs or reductions in workers’ hours and pay. The company presents a plan, the workers’ reps may present another or agree with the company’s (yes, it does happen), the court mediates. It is possible for both parties to be in agreement but for the court to come up with touch-ups, too; even if the plan is eventually accepted as is, it needs to be reviewed. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/8 "2013-03-14T13:07:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve spent quite a bit of time in France, and my experience is: Americans know how to work; The French know how to live. This. Many times this. There’s more to life than “productivity”. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/9 "2013-03-14T13:33:45Z")
There appears to be much greater equality of force between employers and employees in France (and Europe in general). In the US the veneer of “opportunity” hides a system where all the pressure of culture and law are in the service of the employer. We work here out of shame of not working. We overwork ourselves because we are “free.” The result is, of course, that we are incredibly unproductive. Without our technological advantages Americans would be the worst workers in the world. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/10 "2013-03-14T14:08:33Z")
I was in Germany a few years back and there was a show on tv about French winemakers. They were complaining that they were getting priced out of the market by wines from other countries and arguing that the government should pay them to keep their vineyards open. The attitude being that they had been making wine for hundreds of years, and that should be able to continue doing so. Even if no one wanted to buy it. On the other hand: France has 69 of the 500 biggest companies of the world in 2010 France ranks 4th in the Fortune Global 500, behind the USA, Japan and China. Paris is the second most important location in the world for the headquarters of the world’s 500 largest companies There are more Fortune Global 500 company headquarters in Paris than in Beijing, New York, London or Munich, but fewer than in Tokyo. France is the world’s 5th largest national economy by nominal GDP Europe’s 2nd largest national economy by nominal GDP Credit Suisse’s Global Wealth Report ranked France the wealthiest European country with 2.6 million millionaires World’s 4th wealthiest nation in aggregate household wealth. > [@Kepler1571](#): > > There appears to be much greater equality of force between employers and employees in France (and Europe in general). In the US the veneer of “opportunity” hides a system where all the pressure of culture and law are in the service of the employer. We work here out of shame of not working. We overwork ourselves because we are “free.” > > The result is, of course, that we are incredibly unproductive. Without our technological advantages Americans would be the worst workers in the world. Where did those technological advantages come from? The US has the largest, most adaptive and productive econonomy in the world. However, in many ways American’s attitude about work is fucked up. We value wealth and status and celebrity much more than we value the creation of wealth. And I do think we don’t treat employees well. Many business owners and managers treat their employees like they are idiot children that must be tolerated in their pursuit of great wealth instead of as valued contributors (HR team building bullshit aside). OTOH, many employees also act like idiot children who would happily slack off or steal from the company if they weren’t watched constantly. It’s created a bit of a vicious circle IMHO where Americans feel if they aren’t the “superstar”, the job isn’t worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/11 "2013-03-14T14:10:00Z")
> [@Kepler1571](#): > > There appears to be much greater equality of force between employers and employees in France (and Europe in general). It’s not equality, the ‘force’ is skewed heavily toward labor, or rather organized labor. Consider this from the OP’s article: > [@](#): > > Peugeot tried to close plants and lay off workers to adjust production levels to meet market demand, but its unions successfully stalled the implementation of the management’s austerity plan by taking the car company to court. Peugeot was allowed to cut production, but it was not allowed to lay off any of its workers until the court gave it “permission.” That is not equality. Peugot and its shareholders are assuming all of the risks, yet it’s the union-dominated government that decides Peugot’s business strategies. > [@Kepler1571](#): > > In the US the veneer of “opportunity” hides a system where all the pressure of culture and law are in the service of the employer. We work here out of shame of not working. We overwork ourselves because we are “free.” Americans work more hours than Europeans because we get more benefit from it than they do. See [Edward Prescott](http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/qr/qr2811.pdf)’s work on the subject. A high tax burden means the return on an hour’s labor is lower, so people work fewer hours. > [@Kepler1571](#): > > The result is, of course, that we are incredibly unproductive. “Incredibly unproductive”? [Japan Productivy Center](http://www.jpc-net.jp/eng/research/2012_02.html) has the U.S. as the third most productive workforce in the world. [The Conference Board](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked) has the U.S. fourth. [The OECD](http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/economic-data/11857-labor-productivity-and-growth.html#axzz2NWTfUP55) has the U.S. fourth. [The UK’s Office for National Statistics](http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-272275) has the U.S. as the most productive nation in the G7. > [@Kepler1571](#): > > Without our technological advantages Americans would be the worst workers in the world. That technological edge is our comparative advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/12 "2013-03-14T14:15:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Americans work more hours than Europeans because we get more benefit from it than they do. See [Edward Prescott](http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/qr/qr2811.pdf)’s work on the subject. A high tax burden means the return on an hour’s labor is lower, so people work fewer hours. > > [Japan Productivy Center](http://www.jpc-net.jp/eng/research/2012_02.html) has the U.S. as the third most productive workforce in the world. These two sites contradict each other. The productivity site ranks 2 higher tax countries as even more productive than the US. And if you look at countries like Japan or South Korea, they work about as many hours as the US without a lower tax rate (actually, a marginally higher one in the case of Japan). Cultural queues seem to explain the discrepancy much better. I believe everybody here is conflating “productivity” with “efficiency”. The two aren’t the same. As I mentioned above, our people in France work fewer hours than us here in Houston, but profitability / capita doesn’t appear to be appreciably better here. It’ll vary by industry but it’s certainly not a 1-1 thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/13 "2013-03-14T14:21:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ve spent quite a bit of time in France, and my experience is: Americans know how to work; The French know how to live. It’s correct and what’s more the world knows it. I’ve never come across anyone from anywhere who wants the US working laws and culture - I even know people use the admonishment ‘you work like an American’. Not many but it has been used, esp. by wifes in the context of family time. My own view is we have had the 8-hour working day for between 100-150 years. We’ve had industrialisation, computerisation and now the post-industrial age. I see the owners of capital getting wealthier on the back of current work practices and I don’t see the balance between work/life improving. I do see a lot of bullshit propaganda about ‘the American dream’ and wealth. It isn’t the French that have it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/14 "2013-03-14T14:30:50Z")
In different parts of America you will hear people complain about the people in other parts being lazy. People from different eras will call people from other eras lazy. Different professions will call each other lazy. There’s no surprise in any group of people trying to characterize another group as lazy, and cherry picking the data to prove their point. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/15 "2013-03-14T14:32:35Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > These two sites contradict each other. The productivity site ranks 2 higher tax countries as even more productive than the US. > > And if you look at countries like Japan or South Korea, they work about as many hours as the US without a lower tax rate (actually, a marginally higher one in the case of Japan). > > Cultural queues seem to explain the discrepancy much better. They are measuring different things: labor supply, and productivity. If you read Prescott’s article, he includes Japan. See Table 2; it doesn’t contradict his findings. It does not include Korea, as Prescott used G7 nations. > [@Great Antibob](#): > > I believe everybody here is conflating “productivity” with “efficiency”. The two aren’t the same. > > As I mentioned above, our people in France work fewer hours than us here in Houston, but profitability / capita doesn’t appear to be appreciably better here. It’ll vary by industry but it’s certainly not a 1-1 thing. Hours worked and productivity are related, but you are correct, it’s not a 1:1 direct correlation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/16 "2013-03-14T14:39:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Hours worked and productivity are related, but you are correct, it’s not a 1:1 direct correlation. It’s not even close. Automation is the key driver of productivity today, and if you automate a factory and get rid of 50% of the workforce, that doesn’t mean the remaining 50% are going to be working twice as many hours to produce the same amount of goods. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/17 "2013-03-14T14:42:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not even close. Automation is the key driver of productivity today, and if you automate a factory and get rid of 50% of the workforce, that doesn’t mean the remaining 50% are going to be working twice as many hours to produce the same amount of goods. Absolutely. And there’s no reason why **Great Antibob** ’s French division can’t be just as productive in fewer hours than the Houston division. He’s right, that’s a matter of efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/18 "2013-03-14T14:58:51Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It’s correct and what’s more the world knows it. I’ve never come across anyone from anywhere who wants the US working laws and culture - I even know people use the admonishment ‘you work like an American’. Not many but it has been used, esp. by wifes in the context of family time. Well, I want them, so you’ve come across at least one. > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I see the owners of capital getting wealthier on the back of current work practices and I don’t see the balance between work/life improving. I do see a lot of bullshit propaganda about ‘the American dream’ and wealth. It’s not bullshit. [GE 1.1 Median equivalised income of OECD countries](http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/download/8111041ec006.pdf?expires=1363273576&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=DBE10C3379EE05CB4A9E4FBA7BD51AF6). Annual median equivalised disposable household income in USD at current prices and current PPPs in 2007, rounded to nearest thousand: United States: $31,000 France: $20,000 > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > It isn’t the French that have it wrong. Sounds like they have it wrong if they want to sell their tire factories to foreign companies. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/19 "2013-03-14T15:13:47Z")
Its all a continuum. From the American perspective the French may appear lazy, while from their perspective the Americans are wage slaves. Meanwhile from the American perspective the workers in China are being exploited, while it may be from the Chinese perspective our 40 hour work week with regular breaks and paid vacation is lazy. In general I think the world would be a better place if the French model was universal. With the rises in technological efficiency here is clearly enough labor available that we would be able to fulfill everyone’s needs with shorter hours and more leisure time. But since exploiting workers means better profits the Chinese model is more likely to prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/20 "2013-03-14T15:17:31Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > But since exploiting workers means better profits the Chinese model is more likely to prevail. And that is exactly why we _should_ have powerful Unions. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861.md?page=2)