# Are the French 'lazy'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861 "2013-03-13T21:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/21 "2013-03-14T15:28:52Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Where did those technological advantages come from? 20% that same fucked up work ethic. 20% that we were fortunate to have a brand new continent to exploit. 20% that at the very moment we were about to spread our commercial wings the rest of the developed world conveniently committed suicide. 20% that we used to welcome the world to our shores, rather than building walls. 20% that business is heavily stimulated by government spending. One of the great ironies of the business-worship of the Paul Ryan set is their lack of knowledge that a great deal of our scientific progress has been fostered by the very public investment they despise. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/22 "2013-03-14T15:33:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is not equality. Peugot and its shareholders are assuming all of the risks, yet it’s the union-dominated government that decides Peugot’s business strategies. Assuming that capital risk should be the primary consideration doesn’t make for equality. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/23 "2013-03-14T15:34:31Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > But since exploiting workers means better profits the Chinese model is more likely to prevail. But by that logic unions and workers rights would never had gotten off the ground because they would have been uncompetitive. I think it is far more likely that as China becomes more wealthy native social justice movements will evolve which eventually displace the party plutocrats. American founding principles of political equality were never intended to be economic; social evolution eventually forced those principles into a new mold. The Chinese actually have it a lot easier – they don’t even have to misrepresent the ideals of their past, they just need to live up to them. 😛 Economies that cap the influence of wealth, reduce inequality, and build a solid middle class are more stable and more prosperous in the long run. One reason the US has been in decline since 1980 is we forgot that and handed ourselves back over to the tender mercies of people with a 19th century gilded age mentality. To the extent that we take the country back from them, we’ll see our own prosperity return. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/24 "2013-03-14T15:34:36Z")
In the company I work for we have many European employees. The French seem to work pretty hard to me. They just know and DEMAND when to stop. U.S. workers are bullied into sacrificing their lives and getting defacto paycuts where the French will tell you what to do with yourself if you try to do the same with them. I admire my French counterparts for this, not think they are lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/25 "2013-03-14T15:54:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Assuming that capital risk should be the primary consideration doesn’t make for equality. Nor does assuming that political influence should be the primary consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/26 "2013-03-14T16:57:43Z")
I’ve worked with French people. They were oddly entitled. Because they couldn’t be fired for basically any reason they did as they pleased. This was when the economy was bad and layoffs were occurring in our division. Everyone else was trying to grasp on to any essential work to try and save themselves from being RIF’d. The French people didn’t care. One example: We picked a day every week to have everyone stay late and work production issues. No matter what your “day” job, everyone would pitch in and get through the queue so we would be all caught up. It usually took until any time from 6-8 PM. Obviously, everyone hustled because the sooner we finished the sooner we’d go home. The French team would actually all get together in the cafe for “dinner” right at 5PM just like they would every other day. They’d literally sit there and eat cheese, fruit and baguettes for a solid hour before pitching in with everyone else. Very odd. The American, Indian and other workers didn’t know what to make of it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/27 "2013-03-14T17:13:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve worked with French people. They were oddly entitled. Because they couldn’t be fired for basically any reason they did as they pleased. This was when the economy was bad and layoffs were occurring in our division. Everyone else was trying to grasp on to any essential work to try and save themselves from being RIF’d. The French people didn’t care. > > One example: We picked a day every week to have everyone stay late and work production issues. No matter what your “day” job, everyone would pitch in and get through the queue so we would be all caught up. It usually took until any time from 6-8 PM. > > Obviously, everyone hustled because the sooner we finished the sooner we’d go home. The French team would actually all get together in the cafe for “dinner” right at 5PM just like they would every other day. They’d literally sit there and eat cheese, fruit and baguettes for a solid hour before pitching in with everyone else. > > Very odd. > > The American, Indian and other workers didn’t know what to make of it. I think it’s odd that you’d want to stay after hours to do extra work for free. Or am I misunderstanding? Perhaps you were paid extra and overtime for the hours from 6-8PM. But it doesn’t sound like it was voluntary. If the employee is using the crisis to push you to work extra hours instead of hiring the required additional employees you should organise and present a collective opposition. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/28 "2013-03-14T17:18:50Z")
Why wouldn’t you “work production issues” during your working day? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/29 "2013-03-14T18:04:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I was in Germany a few years back and there was a show on tv about French winemakers. They were complaining that they were getting priced out of the market by wines from other countries and arguing that the government should pay them to keep their vineyards open. The attitude being that they had been making wine for hundreds of years, and that should be able to continue doing so. Even if no one wanted to buy it. _C’est ridicule!_ As any American can tell you, only auto manufacturers and mega-banks are entitled to that kind of treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/30 "2013-03-14T18:14:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I was in Germany a few years back and there was a show on tv about French winemakers. They were complaining that they were getting priced out of the market by wines from other countries and arguing that the government should pay them to keep their vineyards open. The attitude being that they had been making wine for hundreds of years, and that should be able to continue doing so. Even if no one wanted to buy it. Seems weird to think this is weird. How much money does the US put into subsidizing the agricultural sector with the (questionable) justification that its for “protecting family farms” every year? I think every industrialized country has a weird hang-up over letting agriculutral goods compete in a free market. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/31 "2013-03-14T18:22:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > On the other hand: > France has 69 of the 500 biggest companies of the world in 2010 > France ranks 4th in the Fortune Global 500, behind the USA, Japan and China. Paris is the second most important location in the world for the headquarters of the world’s 500 largest companies > There are more Fortune Global 500 company headquarters in Paris than in Beijing, New York, London or Munich, but fewer than in Tokyo. > France is the world’s 5th largest national economy by nominal GDP > Europe’s 2nd largest national economy by nominal GDP > Credit Suisse’s Global Wealth Report ranked France the wealthiest European country with 2.6 million millionaires > World’s 4th wealthiest nation in aggregate household wealth. I read a magazine article on this spat in the Economist, and they noted that amongst the list of French companies is Michelin, a tire company some twenty times larger then Titan, the American tire company whose CEO wrote the letter quoted in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/32 "2013-03-14T18:29:20Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I think it’s odd that you’d want to stay after hours to do extra work for free. Or am I misunderstanding? Perhaps you were paid extra and overtime for the hours from 6-8PM. But it doesn’t sound like it was voluntary. If the employee is using the crisis to push you to work extra hours instead of hiring the required additional employees you should organise and present a collective opposition. Not only that, but apparently they expected the French workers to either forego dinner or have it several hours later than usual. Even without working “special” health situations such as diabetes into the equation, toddlers aren’t the only ones who get cranky and have difficulty concentrating when they’re hungry. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/33 "2013-03-14T18:34:22Z")
Sounds to me that US workers are a bunch of push-overs. Like monkeys they surrender to the Boss-man. Hmm…surrender… monkeys… Ah c’mon \*someone \* had to post this… ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/34 "2013-03-14T18:34:55Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > And that is exactly why we _should_ have powerful Unions. > [@Kepler1571](#): > > But by that logic unions and workers rights would never had gotten off the ground because they would have been uncompetitive. Ummm… Just to be clear (since from your responses I guess I wasn’t), I’m on your side. I would love strong unions world wide. I’m just a little pessimistic as to how we get there. We are basically in a prisoner’s dilemma type situation, where so long as one country is willing to underbid the others with regard to worker exploitation, there will be a constant race to the bottom. I hope I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/35 "2013-03-14T18:43:26Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Sounds to me that US workers are a bunch of push-overs. Like monkeys they surrender to the Boss-man. Hmm..surrender.. monkeys.. > Ah c’mon \*someone \* had to post this… Well, many are terrified of their employers / of losing their jobs, partly because of the lack of UHC but also for other reasons, such as foreigners being threatened with La Migra if they so much as peep, or much smaller personal protection networks than in many other countries due partly to the much greater emphasis on individualism. In those other countries, if you move “back home” as a grown-up people will ask how come and treat it as an adult decision whether it was to help ailing parents or because a divorce/jobloss/illness left you in a bad situation - in the US living with your parents while attending college is viewed as “missing on the ‘real college experience’”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/36 "2013-03-14T18:55:12Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Sounds to me that US workers are a bunch of push-overs. Like monkeys they surrender to the Boss-man. Hmm..surrender.. monkeys.. > Ah c’mon \*someone \* had to post this… American Cheese eating surrender monkeys. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/37 "2013-03-14T18:57:04Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Ummm… Just to be clear (since from your responses I guess I wasn’t), I’m on your side. I would love strong unions world wide. I’m just a little pessimistic as to how we get there. We are basically in a prisoner’s dilemma type situation, where so long as one country is willing to underbid the others with regard to worker exploitation, there will be a constant race to the bottom. I hope I’m wrong. I am simply disagreeing with the pessimistic view that because in the short run running your economy with slave labor like China or Tysons Chicken is effective this forestalls like likelihood of long-term change. Although upwards mobility and the broadening of the middle class is not inevitable, it does have efficiency on its side when it is not actively hampered by baronial schemes like the Club For Growth. The good guys will tend to win in the long run as long as they keep the Koch brothers, or whatever their guanxi equivalents are, from gaming the political system. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/38 "2013-03-14T20:26:12Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I think it’s odd that you’d want to stay after hours to do extra work for free. Or am I misunderstanding? Perhaps you were paid extra and overtime for the hours from 6-8PM. But it doesn’t sound like it was voluntary. No one “wants” to work late, but sometimes it just has to be done. It wasn’t a permanent thing, it was a new product that had gone live and thus was having a lot of issues that needed to be addressed. Having everyone stay late to fix them was a management idea, but not one that was terribly unpopular. It was fair in the sense that everyone did it and it made sure we were caught up every week. Plus it didn’t impact anyone’s ability to do their regular job during the day. The group was professionals: Developers and analysts and testers. Everyone was salaried so there wasn’t overtime, except possibly for contractors. > [@](#): > > If the employee is using the crisis to push you to work extra hours instead of hiring the required additional employees you should organise and present a collective opposition. Is this a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/39 "2013-03-14T20:46:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > No one “wants” to work late, but sometimes it just has to be done. It wasn’t a permanent thing, it was a new product that had gone live and thus was having a lot of issues that needed to be addressed. Sure, it happens sometimes. And in France, the employer has to pay overtime, even to normally salaried employees, based on their nominal pay based on a 35 hour work-week. Not strangely, there’s not much overtime worked at our French offices, and the local management figures out how to schedule things so it doesn’t often occur. It still happens, but it’s much more rare than in our Houston or Singapore offices, where 50 or 60 hour weeks are the norm, not the exception. The pay is a little better in Houston, but that’s to ameliorate the higher US turnover rate - people leave for other companies where they don’t have to work such long hours. And, we’re having to convince upper management that significantly increasing pay might just reduce turnover. After the last couple years, they’re starting to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/40 "2013-03-14T20:47:09Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Not only that, but apparently they expected the French workers to either forego dinner or have it several hours later than usual. Even without working “special” health situations such as diabetes into the equation, toddlers aren’t the only ones who get cranky and have difficulty concentrating when they’re hungry. Is this serious? First of all I’ve never known anyone who eats dinner at five every day. Most people are leaving work around that time and I know I don’t even get home until after six. Second of all, I have never known anyone who would rather be in the office later then they had to, whether to eat dinner or for anything else. Most people would rather finish up and get out of there. If being hungry makes you so cranky you can’t wait a couple hours to eat you can always just eat something at your desk or even in a meeting. That happens all the time. I’ve never known anyone that had to stop working just to eat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861.md?page=3)