# Are the French 'lazy'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861 "2013-03-13T21:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/81 "2013-03-15T23:28:07Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Maybe because by making you salaried and exempt, your employer doesn’t have to pay you for the time you actually work? Does that seem like a good idea to anybody but the employer? Or perhaps because some jobs are like my husband’s - although he works longer hours sometimes due to workload , if he leaves early during the slow periods or takes a couple of hours off for a doctor appointment anytime there is no expectation of making up the hours \*or \*using leave time. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/82 "2013-03-16T03:16:03Z")
Mostly the people I know want to be on salary because contractors don’t get health benefits. This is such a huge difference between the US and Western Europe that this discussion doesn’t seem real to me. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/83 "2013-03-16T05:28:25Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Mostly the people I know want to be on salary because contractors don’t get health benefits. This is such a huge difference between the US and Western Europe that this discussion doesn’t seem real to me. And one of the seriously huge benefits of mrAru doing 20 years in the Navy. I may bitch about the jackasses in the tri-care system, but it pays the medical bills. I get $3000 worth of medications a month free from the Sub Base NLON dispensary, and it has paid for a bunch of diverse procedures at Yale-New Haven to keep my sorry ass and soul together. If it wasn’t for Tricare, we would be sunk because the various jobs mrAru and I have had in the past almost 30 years have had crappy to none in medical insurance. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/84 "2013-03-16T12:53:19Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Mostly the people I know want to be on salary because contractors don’t get health benefits. This is such a huge difference between the US and Western Europe that this discussion doesn’t seem real to me. That’s not always true. I’m technically a “contractor” in my position, but the vendor I work through provides health insurance and 401k. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/85 "2013-03-16T17:52:13Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yeah. I know this is true, but it really doesn’t make a lot of sense. If you are “salaried” the whole idea is that you get a fixed rate of pay to get your job done, regardless of actual hours worked. It’s even called “exempt” at most companies, meaning exempt from overtime. > > . “Salaried” workers in the American sense of the word, are almost non-existent in France. Everybody has a work contract and is paid for a given number of hours. Only the upper management can be exempted. The poster was probably refering to people who would be salaried if they held an equivalent job in the USA. By the way, since people might draw the wrong conclusions from some statements made in this thread : France has one of the lowest rate of unionization in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/86 "2013-03-16T18:17:23Z")
Another minor point I had forgotten : a lot of French workers (the majority? Large majority maybe even?) don’t work 35 hours/week. There are a variety of agreements, but commonly people work, say, 40 hours and get extra vacation days instead of overtime. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/87 "2013-03-16T18:20:02Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Yes, but are employers required to bargain in good faith regarding the layoff _policies_ ( which may have been in place for decades before a layoff) or the layoffs/plant closings themselves? There’s a difference and I can’t say I’ve ever heard of a union stopping or even delaying a layoff or plant closing because the company didn’t bargain about the layoff/closing itself. The MLB players’ association threatened to strike and filed an NLRB grievance over the league’s plan to contract the Montreal Expos and some other team I forget. I can’t think of any other labor actions of the top of my head, though. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/88 "2013-03-16T18:41:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The MLB players’ association threatened to strike and filed an NLRB grievance over the league’s plan to contract the Montreal Expos and some other team I forget. I can’t think of any other labor actions of the top of my head, though. I’m sure they threatened to-but my question was whether the obligation to bargain in good faith applied to layoff policies or individual layoff/closings. For example, the contract I am most familiar with contains a section regarding layoff policies. That contract was negotiated in 2011 and lasts until 2015. I’m asking if you’re saying that the employer has to \*again \*negotiate if a layoff is planned in 2013. Not whether the union can claim that the employer isn’t following the contractual provisions in terms of who gets laid off and how much notice is due (I know that can happen) but the layoff itself. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/89 "2013-03-16T19:13:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the 35 hr work-week, didn’t they get rid of that a few years ago because it didn’t work out well? Eeeeeh, yes and no. It’s still technically the law of the land. However, there are plenty of domains where employers and employees simply agree to skirt the laws because business is business, more or less. As well, throughout Sarkozy’s tenure as President plenty of exceptions and special rules have been drafted to allow companies to skirt around the rules or work _de facto_ 40 hour weeks as long as they fulfil various sets of criteria. The 35h work week isn’t dead yet, but it is limping. ETA: I should also add that, even within the strict framework of the 35h laws, most people aren’t _actually_ expected to only work 35h - instead they get what is called “Récupération de Temps de Travail” days, or “Worktime Payback”: every hour above 35 you work a week, you get to add to a pool that eventually leads to more paid vacation days, essentially. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/90 "2013-03-16T19:31:45Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > This. > > If you yanks weren’t so bloody arogant and chauvenistic, you might learn something important. [Jack Nicholsen rant]We are arrogant and chauvinistic. It’s how we kicked the Kaiser’s and Hitler’s ass so you wouldn’t be Nazi slaves. It’s how we protect your freedom to this day while you spend money on the pomp and pageantry of your royal and aristocratic institutions. And your NHS. So while we are dying of overwork and a shitty health care system to protect your freedoms, we’d appreciate it if you didn’t question how we provided it for you. You can’t handle the truth! [Jack Nicholsen rant] ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/91 "2013-03-16T19:35:39Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > [Jack Nicholsen rant]We are arrogant and chauvinistic. It’s how we kicked the Kaiser’s and Hitler’s ass so you wouldn’t be Nazi slaves. It’s how we protect your freedom to this day while you spend money on the pomp and pageantry of your royal and aristocratic institutions. And your NHS. So while we are dying of overwork and a shitty health care system to protect your freedoms, we’d appreciate it if you didn’t question how we provided it for you. You can’t handle the truth! [Jack Nicholsen rant] Is this a genuine thought disguised as parody? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/92 "2013-03-16T19:43:25Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Or perhaps because some jobs are like my husband’s - although he works longer hours sometimes due to workload , if he leaves early during the slow periods or takes a couple of hours off for a doctor appointment anytime there is no expectation of making up the hours \*or \*using leave time. What you’re describing is comp time though. Working more and making up for it later. What I want to know is what is the employee benefit of exempt status. How does the employee benefit from not being paid overtime. Not flexible schedules, not comp time, not “if I work more this week I just work less next week,” actual exempt not paid for overtime status. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/93 "2013-03-16T20:58:22Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > What you’re describing is comp time though. Working more and making up for it later. What I want to know is what is the employee benefit of exempt status. How does the employee benefit from not being paid overtime. Not flexible schedules, not comp time, not “if I work more this week I just work less next week,” actual exempt not paid for overtime status. No, I said “no expectation of making it up later or using leave time”. He doesn’t account for his hours in any way. He doesn’t get paid by the hour- he gets paid based on what he produces. For all his manager knows, he spends 2 hours a day calling his customers on the phone from home. All that matters is that he meets his quotas and that his customers don’t complain about poor service. He works more during the busy season because more customers have larger orders and that takes more time. But if he takes 2 hours off to go to the doctor, he \*doesn’t \*make those two hours up the next day, the next week or the next month. If he works longer the next week, it’s not to make up the two hours- it’s because he’s busier. And conversely, during the slow season, he generally works fewer than 40 hours a week for multiple weeks at a time. There are a lot of salaried, overtime-exempt jobs where the normal workweek is over 40 hours- but there are also some where it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/94 "2013-03-16T21:34:50Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Is this a genuine thought disguised as parody? I intended it as parody disguised as thought. Is that the same thing? Is it better than real thought, like the Daily Show is better than American TV News? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/95 "2013-03-16T23:36:49Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > No, I said “no expectation of making it up later or using leave time”. He doesn’t account for his hours in any way. He doesn’t get paid by the hour- he gets paid based on what he produces. For all his manager knows, he spends 2 hours a day calling his customers on the phone from home. All that matters is that he meets his quotas and that his customers don’t complain about poor service. He works more during the busy season because more customers have larger orders and that takes more time. But if he takes 2 hours off to go to the doctor, he \*doesn’t \*make those two hours up the next day, the next week or the next month. If he works longer the next week, it’s not to make up the two hours- it’s because he’s busier. And conversely, during the slow season, he generally works fewer than 40 hours a week for multiple weeks at a time. > > There are a lot of salaried, overtime-exempt jobs where the normal workweek is over 40 hours- but there are also some where it isn’t. I’m glad his employer doesn’t take advantage of that. I think the common culture in the US is not in sync with that mentality, however. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/96 "2013-03-16T23:42:42Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m reading your posts now. They seem dubious in the facts they are presenting. > > Both cite only 2008 vs 2012 in the number of lawsuits against employers for overtime raising by 30%. Of course it’s going to be higher. You are comparing now to the year before the recession. I’m sure that raises have also been lower (or non-existent) during that time and that bonuses have also been lower. What does the state of the economy have to do with the acceptability of unpaid overtime for people who should not be classified as exempt? > [@](#): > > This doesn’t mean anything. I can stipulate that the worse the economy is the more likely it is that employers will cut corners and force unpaid overtime on people who should be paid for it. So it’s okay to do as long as the economy is bad? > [@](#): > > What’s this prove? Nothing. There are still most people working in salaried positions who are quite happy with the system and who would rather have a higher salary than overtime pay. We’d have such a system if that’s what people wanted. People prefer to have the flexibility and security of a salary. But again, we aren’t arguing whether salaried positions are good or bad. I am salaried, so I know about the security of having a steady paycheck. What I’d like to know is why does the US have a culture that demands that you work more than what you’re being paid for, and why is that acceptable for US employees but not French employees? You seem to be arguing that we have a better system because it’s more flexible for the employee, but all you’re demonstrating is that comp time is flexible and that isn’t the same as being expected to work unpaid overtime. > [@](#): > > Companies being sued for abusing overtime laws has nothing to do with proving that the reason companies pay people salary is because it works to their advantage to force their employees to work unpaid overtime. I’m saying that paying someone a salary and classifying them as exempt is advantageous for the employer and not ever for the employee. You’re giving me all these reasons why salaried employees of either status have perks by being salaried, which I agree, but not demonstrating why there is a need for exempt status and in what way it could possibly benefit a worker over an employer. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/97 "2013-03-17T00:16:30Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > But again, we aren’t arguing whether salaried positions are good or bad. I am salaried, so I know about the security of having a steady paycheck. What I’d like to know is why does the US have a culture that demands that you work more than what you’re being paid for, and why is that acceptable for US employees but not French employees? You seem to be arguing that we have a better system because it’s more flexible for the employee, but all you’re demonstrating is that comp time is flexible and that isn’t the same as being expected to work unpaid overtime. I don’t think there is a culture that demands that overtime-exempt employees work more than what they are paid for. We have a culture that says certain jobs are paid for every hour they work and only the hours they work , others are paid a certain sum and expected to work a certain number of hours for it but don’t necessarily lose pay if they work fewer hours ( because if you do lose pay, you’re actually an hourly worker), and others are paid a certain salary to do a certain job, no matter how many or how few hours it takes. I doubt that there is anyone who takes an overtime-exempt job where 50 (or 60 or 70) hour workweeks are the norm who doesn’t know that going in and I would expect that that fact was taken into consideration when deciding whether to accept the job at the specified pay rate. I’m overtime-exempt and have to account for every hour I work because I am a government employee. (different rules) I knew going in that I wouldn’t be paid extra for overtime and knew approximately how frequently I would end up working more than my required hours. And I wouldn’t have taken the job if the salary wasn’t enough of a bump to make up for it. Are people sometimes inappropriately classified as exempt? Yes. Are people sometimes treated whichever way benefits the employer? Yes. But that’s not a problem with the concept- its a problem with enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/98 "2013-03-17T12:33:38Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > [Jack Nicholsen rant]We are arrogant and chauvinistic. It’s how we kicked the Kaiser’s and Hitler’s ass so you wouldn’t be Nazi slaves. It’s how we protect your freedom to this day while you spend money on the pomp and pageantry of your royal and aristocratic institutions. And your NHS. So while we are dying of overwork and a shitty health care system to protect your freedoms, we’d appreciate it if you didn’t question how we provided it for you. You can’t handle the truth! [Jack Nicholsen rant] > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I intended it as parody disguised as thought. Is that the same thing? Is it better than real thought, like the Daily Show is better than American TV News? It’s a humorous nonsense is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/99 "2013-03-18T12:32:12Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > I’m glad his employer doesn’t take advantage of that. I think the common culture in the US is not in sync with that mentality, however. You are wrong. In my experience basically all salaried positions are like this. Have you ever worked for a salary in the US? You are coming across like you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861/100 "2013-03-18T12:40:29Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > What does the state of the economy have to do with the acceptability of unpaid overtime for people who should not be classified as exempt? > > … > > So it’s okay to do as long as the economy is bad? It’s got nothing to do with the acceptability of it. But the state of the economy has a lot to do with how often it will occur. It’s natural that when times are tough, employees are less willing to leave despite working longer hours. Companies are going to take advantage of this. Sometimes this is legal, for example with professional salaried employees. Sometimes it’s not, like with hourly employees that get overtime and don’t get paid properly for it. > [@](#): > > But again, we aren’t arguing whether salaried positions are good or bad. Yes, we are. I don’t know why you have so much trouble understanding this. > [@](#): > > I am salaried, so I know about the security of having a steady paycheck. In the US? I find that surprising. You certainly are asking questions about the system in the US as if you’ve never spent a day working in it. > [@](#): > > What I’d like to know is why does the US have a culture that demands that you work more than what you’re being paid for It doesn’t. This is an assumption of yours, and it’s not correct. > [@](#): > > I’m saying that paying someone a salary and classifying them as exempt is advantageous for the employer and not ever for the employee. I know. You are wrong about this opinion, but you are welcome to it. > [@](#): > > You’re giving me all these reasons why salaried employees of either status have perks by being salaried, which I agree, but not demonstrating why there is a need for exempt status and in what way it could possibly benefit a worker over an employer. Debaser: This is a nice car. You: Why? Tell me about it? Debaser: It’s affordable. It gets good mileage. It’s in a nice color. It has lots of headroom. You: I don’t care about those things! Tell me about the car. Don’t talk to me about mileage or headroom! I want to know about the car! Debaser: ??? Being a salaried employee is a good thing for employees because of the things I’ve pointed out: Flexibility of hours worked, not having to make up time, consistency of pay every week, etc. These are features of salaried employees and they are desirable. If you want to twist the definition of words so far that “salaried” means something other than what it does then I don’t know how I can help you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-french-lazy/652861.md?page=6)