# Are the GOP rooting for total economic collapse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045 "2011-07-22T23:06:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/221 "2011-07-25T17:35:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Let me see if I have this right: I work for a living, and folks who don’t work sit back and collect money off my productivity? The rich who don’t work collect money by supplying me with something of value, and the poor who don’t work collect money by supplying me with nothing? No, I think you might be missing a critical point. We are not talking about the leisure calss capitalist on the one hand and the sit at home welfare recipient on the other. First of all, sit at home welfare simply doesn’t exist anymore because lifetime benefits are capped at 60 months and second of all, we are talking about the distribution of wealth between capityal and LABOR not teh distribution fo welath between capital and folks taht sit on their ass. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/222 "2011-07-25T17:37:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Lenin’s “Imperialism” has been discredited for nearly a century. > > Rich countries are rich largely because they have relatively high levels of freedom, enforce the rule of law, and educate most of their citizenry. The idea that they’re rich for any other reason is preposterous and flies in the face of the plain facts. Some of them sell us oil. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/223 "2011-07-25T17:54:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Ah! So it’s not just labor that has value, it’s ‘productive’ labor. On that we agree. Now ask yourself, “What makes labor more productive?” Economists will give you several answers; Access to infrastructure (roads, communications, clean water, etc). Education. Specialization. Investment of capital to magnify human labor. An hour’s labor with a pickaxe is not as productive as the same hour of labor driving a steam shovel. But for that productivity gain for the worker to be realized, someone has to accumulate the capital to buy the steam shovel, and someone else had to accumulate the capital required to make the factory that built the steam shovel, and so on. I think he meant productive labor as opposed to digging holes and filling them back up again. Of course capital makes us MORE productive but capital is usually seen as a productivity multiplier. It is the huge capital stock that helps makes American workers the msot productive workers int he world, its not JUST because we work that much harder or more efficiently than other workers. Noone is saying that capital should get NO returns. > [@](#): > > It’s this accumulation of capital in key productive areas that causes improvements in productivity, and it’s improvements in productivity that ultimately raises the price of labor and brings gains in wealth to the working class. Ina closed system this may be true but when your market is in the US and your production is in China, you are effectively improving the overall welfare of the WOLRD’S working class by moving jobs from the US to China and lowering the cost of products. > [@](#): > > When you tax the rich heavily and give the money to the poor, you damage the process of capital formation that leads to jobs and productivity growth. We are talking about increasing the top marginal rate by 4.6%. The sort of distortion you are talking about really requires significantly higher taxes. > [@](#): > > I see. So, how come the South Korea is now a 1st world nation? Just FYI but I think Korea had somerthing pretty close to a command economy until just a couple of decades ago. Comapnies like Samsung and Hyundai made their fortunes with government projects and government directed development. There are entire cities surrounding Seoul that were built at the request of the government. > [@](#): > > You’ve got it exactly backwards. In a modern economy, the rent-seekers go to the _government_ to protect them. The regulatory state has been captured by corporate interests which use it to squeeze out competition and socialize their losses. The stock market is propped up by loose monetary policy. Stimulus money goes to the fatcats at GE and GM and to big labor unions, while the wreckage gets spread across the poor working class and small businesses. There are revolving doors between government and big financial, lobbying, and insurance firms. The CEO of Fannie Mae, a quasi-government organization, made over 100 million dollars by trading on the credit of the United States government and shifting risk to taxpayers. Agreed rent seeking is more accurately (although incompletely) described by you. > **[Rent-seeking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking)** > > Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating public policy or economic conditions without creating new wealth. > Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society. They result in reduced economic efficiency through misallocation of resources, stifled competition, reduced wealth creation, lost government revenue, heightened income inequality, heightened debt levels, risk of growing corruption and cronyism, decreased public trust in instituti Successfu... But rentseeking behaviour can often occur in the absence of government and regulation. > [@](#): > > You think the government is there to protect you from the ravages of unfettered capitalism. In fact, the government is there to grease the wheels of the status quo and make the biggest players happy, while simultaneously expanding its own power by promising bread and circuses to the masses. The ravages of unfettered capitalism are certain, corruption is not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/224 "2011-07-25T17:57:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > To find who they’re being exploited by, 99% of the time they need not look outside their own borders. > > Third World countries are the way they are in large part because they’re run by thieves. When the thievery stops, things get better. > > If the United States exploits the countries it trades with, why isn’t Canada poor? I agree with you. Most third world nations have noone to blame but their own leaders for their poverty. Someone like Der Trihs might respond that we are accomplices in their poverty because we support and do business with these kleptocracies because we frankly don’t give a shit where we buy our oil and natural resources from. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/225 "2011-07-25T18:00:06Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > Anyone have any thoughts on how the Asian markets will open today? A yawn? Apocalypse? Somewhere in between? The Stock Exchange of Thailand closed up 0.58% on Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/226 "2011-07-25T18:09:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Democracy. The people are sovereign over the country. Like any feudal king, the populace may demand such rents as are necessary to their needs, or useful to their ends, so long as they don’t starve the vassals of their own living expenses. And the neat thing is that you are both subject and part of the sovereign (confusing, right?). Enough people want entitlements, they’ll get them, unless they want to be nice guys. +1 > [@](#): > > I shouldn’t have made up cute names. It sounds like our bond debt is largely in the hands of Orthodox Jews, which really is pretty unlikely. Growing up in my mother’s store in the lower east side on Orchard Street, I knew a lot of orthodox Jews and none of them were named Kip or Travis. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/227 "2011-07-25T18:13:52Z")
> [@TheBlackOut](#): > > If we had been adhering to the Constitution (if you don’t like it or agree it, contact your Rep. to have them start drafting a new one) and not partaking in deficit spending all these years, we wouldn’t be here. Deficit spending is implicit in the Constitution. It even has a few things to say about our sovereign debt. We also wouldn’t be here if Bush never cut taxes. Of course the wars were not exactly pushed by the CATO institute but the same folks who carry water for the CATO institute also carried water for the wars and I think we agree the wars are a lorge part of why we are where we are. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/228 "2011-07-25T18:19:34Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Nordquist still disagrees with letting the Bush tax cuts expire but claims that’s not technically a tax hike…thus not breaking their pledge. Where do you get that Nordquist thinks the tax cuts have caused any damage? He can read and do simple math, unlike the tea baggers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/229 "2011-07-25T18:20:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We are the “job creators”. When we spend our money, we create the jobs, we create the demand. I’m not crazy about a consumerist economy, but it is what it is, and for the time being, we are stuck with it. > > The Republican “job creators” theme is total bullshit. “If we tax the rich, they won’t invest!” As if they were going to invest in more production, more jobs in production, to produce things no one will buy. Why in Og’s name would I believe that? I agree with you. I thought I was being ironic. I guess the irony doesn’t translate as well on the interweb. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/230 "2011-07-25T18:26:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree with you. Most third world nations have noone to blame but their own leaders for their poverty. > > Someone like Der Trihs might respond that we are accomplices in their poverty because we support and do business with these kleptocracies because we frankly don’t give a shit where we buy our oil and natural resources from. And Western countries doubtlessly do some nasty shit. Like I said, it’s not like we’re all angels. But cutting off trade and investment would be a hideous evil that would doom millions to poverty and death. It’s also nearly impossible, anyway. For instance, oil. How’re you going to NOT buy oil from Saudi Arabia? the U.S. could, say, make efforts to import a greater percentage of its oil from Canada and Norway and places like that, but oil is essentially fungible; all you’d be doing is making other people buy Saudi oil instead of Canadian or Norwegian oil. [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] Okay, so what happens if the GOP offers a plan that avoids said catastrophe and Great Depression? I mean, it’ll include a lot of other stuff he dislikes, but if it’s got that covered, then what does the went-without-saying principle dictate? [/QUOTE] Then he’s obliged to strongly consider it. But I haven’t seen one. You simply cannot tackle the U.S. deficit without either allowing some taxes to increase - tax hikes, letting cuts expire, whatever - or essentially ending entire sections of federal spending, which would cause economic catastrophe. There is no way around it. It’s math. Cuts here and there are not enough. When did the GOP offer a deal that involved more taxes? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/231 "2011-07-25T18:28:31Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Sorry…you don’t get to decide what my statement was about. My statement was perfectly clear. Obviously not. You had something taht you thought in your head and then the rest of us saw a statement about taxation. I was not the only person who responded to your idiotic statement with the observation that the statement was and idiotic statement about taxation. So, at the very least, it was not perfectly clear. In a conversation about taxes it seems a bit odd to claim that your invitiation for people who think their taxes are too low can write check to teh Treasury was not about taxation. But at least you seem to be conceding that this is a stupid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/232 "2011-07-25T18:35:29Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > My words are crystal clear. It is your comprehension that is a bit cloudy. Like I said, I’m not the only one that thought you were talking about taxation. > [@](#): > > Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps they vote to expand the size of government and entitlement programs. Maybe they are smart enough to realize that raising taxes or expanding government more will harm them in the long run. I don’t know the answer but I certainly do not like the decision being left to 47% who don’t contribute to the federal income tax pot. Its how democracies work. If you don’t like it, come up with a new gform of government where the rich control everything… wait, that not a NEW form of government, we have actually tried that sort of thing in the past. > [@](#): > > I’ll have to agree with Obama that raising taxes in a recession is a bad idea. Well, he’s an idiot who thinks that saying this sort of shit is going to get Republicans to vote for him. Either that or he was using it as cover to hide the fact that he showed absolutely no leadership in December when he let the Republicans extend the bush tax cuts for another two years. And right now we are not talking about cutting taxes or doing nothing, we are talking about choosing between tax increases and spending cuts and I don’t see how the sort of tax increases we are talking about are any more harmful than the sort of spending cuts we are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/233 "2011-07-25T18:37:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He takes it, he has to. And then he waits for them to try and make the Bush tax cuts permanent. Which they will. What so he can fold again when they take the econmy hostage over that issue as well? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/234 "2011-07-25T18:39:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, I think you might be missing a critical point. We are not talking about the leisure calss capitalist on the one hand and the sit at home welfare recipient on the other. First of all, sit at home welfare simply doesn’t exist anymore because lifetime benefits are capped at 60 months and second of all, we are talking about the distribution of wealth between capityal and LABOR not teh distribution fo welath between capital and folks taht sit on their ass. I don’t care if it’s 60 months or 600. I pay the sit-at-home rich guy when he contributes something of value, and pay the sit-at-home poor guy when he contributes nothing of value. I was asked whether the former bothers me; it doesn’t; I supply the labor, he supplies the stuff, we split the result; what do I care whether he sits on his ass for five months or five years? Now, if some _ **other** _ guy sits on his ass for five months or five years, and asks to split the result without supplying labor or stuff – you’re right, that’s a different discussion altogether – and one I mentioned only to emphasize why it doesn’t bother me to cut in a guy who actually supplies something of value: I’m already cutting in guys who supply nothing of value, so why not cut in a guy who makes it worth my while? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/235 "2011-07-25T18:47:21Z")
> [@](#): > > What so he can fold again when they take the econmy hostage over that issue as well? What do you want, then? They say that they will send the economy over the cliff if he doesn’t give in, your plan is for him to say “Fuck you, you haven’t got the guts to shoot!” You sure about that? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/236 "2011-07-25T18:58:45Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And Western countries doubtlessly do some nasty shit. Like I said, it’s not like we’re all angels. > > But cutting off trade and investment would be a hideous evil that would doom millions to poverty and death. It’s also nearly impossible, anyway. > > For instance, oil. How’re you going to NOT buy oil from Saudi Arabia? the U.S. could, say, make efforts to import a greater percentage of its oil from Canada and Norway and places like that, but oil is essentially fungible; all you’d be doing is making other people buy Saudi oil instead of Canadian or Norwegian oil. Sure I agree BUT… not to sound like a Republican, we do in fact have immense untapped resources in teh USA that can tide us over until the eggheads figure out how to achieve grid parity with wind solar and other renewables. 2/3 of our oil consumption is for transportation. 95% of our transportation is powered by oil. We should increase the cafe standards to improve national fuel efficiency. We should improve rail infrastructure to get more of our freight delivered by rail. It is a national security issue and an economic Achilles heel. We have effectively given oil exporting countries a lever on the welfare of our economy. They raise the price of oil high enough and they might as well put up toll booths on our interstates. Second is industrial use for manufacturing, this accounts for about 25% of oil consumption. There is probably not much we can do about that About 4% of oil is used to heat homes. If there was ever a shovel ready project it would be to subsidize brigning gas lines into every residential neighborhood in the USA. Sure you make people buy their own oil burning furnaces but you don’t have to make them pay for bringing the gas line from the street to their house. It only accounts for 2% of oil consumption but we shouldn’t have any electricity powered by oil except in Hawaii. We have enough natural gas to supply the world’s evnergy needs for at least a century. The problem is that gas is hard to transport so we can generally only use it where it is produced unless you liquify it, which increases the cost significantly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/237 "2011-07-25T19:01:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What do you want, then? They say that they will send the economy over the cliff if he doesn’t give in, your plan is for him to say “Fuck you, you haven’t got the guts to shoot!” You sure about that? Yeah I’m pretty sure. For the same reason I’m pretty sure that you don’t negotiate with hostage takers in other situations either. It encourages hostage taking and coercive behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/238 "2011-07-25T19:04:38Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t care if it’s 60 months or 600. I pay the sit-at-home rich guy when he contributes something of value, and pay the sit-at-home poor guy when he contributes nothing of value. I was asked whether the former bothers me; it doesn’t; I supply the labor, he supplies the stuff, we split the result; what do I care whether he sits on his ass for five months or five years? And you don’t care how the results are split? > [@](#): > > Now, if some _ **other** _ guy sits on his ass for five months or five years, and asks to split the result without supplying labor or stuff – you’re right, that’s a different discussion altogether – and one I mentioned only to emphasize why it doesn’t bother me to cut in a guy who actually supplies something of value: I’m already cutting in guys who supply nothing of value, so why not cut in a guy who makes it worth my while? Noone… NOONE is saying that the idle rich deserve nothing for being born rich (I have not heard any calls for the nationalization of inherited wealth), we are saying that capital in general along with the representatives of capital (managers, CEOS. etc) are getting an increasingly large share of the results compared to times when America had a strong and growing middle class. A middle calss that was able to purchase and consume the products of all that labor and capital. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/239 "2011-07-25T19:18:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you don’t care how the results are split? Of course I care. I know how much I’d value the stuff the rich guy would be contributing, he knows how much he’d value the labor I’m contributing, and the moral magic of consent kicks in whenever offer and acceptance meet. > [@](#): > > we are saying that capital in general along with the representatives of capital (managers, CEOS. etc) are getting an increasingly large share of the results compared to times when America had a strong and growing middle class. How can folks with capital get so big a cut of the results, unless the labor in question truly is worth so little? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/240 "2011-07-25T19:19:05Z")
There is another option. Obama could just raise the debt limit himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045.md?page=13)