# Are the GOP rooting for total economic collapse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045 "2011-07-22T23:06:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/61 "2011-07-23T18:50:38Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No. I mean seeing someone who tilts towards the left stating that they’d personally be willing to shoulder tax increases instead of wanting to tax the “rich”. I tilt toward the list and I said I would personally be willing to do so right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14055991&postcount=49): > [@L. G. Butts](#): > > \ $2,400 is not that much to us. I would vote for the tax increase. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Not true. > > 1.) Even when you take into account Federal, state and local taxes, the rich still have an effective tax rate higher than any other income group. Cite? I would like to see proof of this assertion. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > 2.) The poor and middle class are getting a damn good deal in regards to taxes paid and money received in government spending (Federal, state and local). > [Link](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/2286.html) > > So yes, let’s talk increases 🙂 (or more importantly, spending cuts). Those lucky duckies! Still I don’t think the tax foundation calculated all the benefits that corporations and stock holders get from government investment in infrastructure and National defense spending. I will look at the report later, but I bet they calculate the money received by looking at farm subsidies, Medicaid, welfare, etc… But do they look at the pro-rated benefits to corporations from things like the interstate highway system, law enforcement, stabilized oil prices, Navy protection of shipping in the Strait of Malacca, etc… It seems to me corporations (and the people that own them) get a huge bang for their buck in our national infrastructure and foreign policy adventurism… Why is it that military spending cuts is not on the table in Republican plan anyway? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/62 "2011-07-23T18:56:52Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The answer could be yes or no depending on how you view it. Dude A, born into a wealthy family, put through Harvard only to return to take over the family business and make millions, consents to the arrangement and becomes a success. Meanwhile dude B, born into a poor family and unable to attend college at all, takes what job he can find to avoid homelessness. > > Dude A lobbies his congressperson to abolish the minimum wage and succeeds. All the dude B’s of the world still need to avoid homelessness. Is ‘consent’ the heart of the matter? I’m merely questioning the characterization: that the rich are “skimming the value off the labor of the poor and sticking it in their own pockets.” Is it that Dude B is doing something of value and not getting a big enough fraction of it – or that his labor really _ **isn’t** _ all that valuable, and you’re glad to explain why? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/63 "2011-07-23T19:00:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > One hears this fallacy _ad nauseam_, particularly from right-wingers. Does it have a name? One also hears the whining from people who want to pay more taxes yet do nothing to increase their own tax burden _ad nauseam_. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/64 "2011-07-23T19:07:13Z")
Well they vote democrat, and raising taxes is all they do, right!!! So then they’d be sticking their money where their mouth is… ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/65 "2011-07-23T19:12:16Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m merely questioning the characterization: that the rich are “skimming the value off the labor of the poor and sticking it in their own pockets.” Is it that Dude B is doing something of value and not getting a big enough fraction of it – or that his labor really _ **isn’t** _ all that valuable, and you’re glad to explain why? Of course some people’s labor is more valuable than others. The problem is in how this is decided. It seems some forces want to declare everyone who works for a living to be dumb and unworthy of any reward whatsoever. Nevermind the fact that working people actually make the country function. What’s behind my characterization is the notion that the system can be set up in such a way that many people get effectively ripped off. We have a $14 trillion economy. A huge percentage of the wealth generated ends up in the hands of the top 5% or 10% of earners. Does anyone really think the value of labor is as disproportionate as the distribution of wealth? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/66 "2011-07-23T19:16:22Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > One also hears the whining from people who want to pay more taxes yet do nothing to increase their own tax burden _ad nauseam_. Put it to a vote then… Did you follow Proposition 100 in Arizona, a state that is pretty conservative? Prop 100 was for a 1% sales tax increase that passed with over 64% in favor. Here’s a [fox cite](http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/money/prop-100-5-18-2010) for you since I doubt you would take my word for it. Done nothing? I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. I, and others (including Republicans) have indicated to our government that we would be OK with tax increases. What do you want me to do? I just want to pay my fair share of the programs that congress enacted (note: Congress set the current spending levels, NOT Obama). ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/67 "2011-07-23T19:17:00Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Back in the 1990’s, I remember seeing “Starve the Beast” referenced in _U.S. News and World Report._ It was seriously claimed by a few Senators as a justification for deficits even then. > > There is a wing of the GOP that makes no secret of its opposition to entitlements. Newt Gingrich denounced Bob Dole as “tax collector for the welfare state,” as if that were a bad thing. > > This is not a secret, let alone tinfoil hat time. This is what the Norquist/Gingrich/T.E.A. Party axis has explicitly campaigned on for 15-20 years. Man, that was one hell of a post to argue against a point that I did not make. Go back and read the post I was responding to. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/68 "2011-07-23T19:20:56Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Put it to a vote then… > > Did you follow Proposition 100 in Arizona, a state that is pretty conservative? Prop 100 was for a 1% sales tax increase that passed with over 64% in favor. Here’s a [fox cite](http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/money/prop-100-5-18-2010) for you since I doubt you would take my word for it. > > Done nothing? I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. I, and others (including Republicans) have indicated to our government that we would be OK with tax increases. What do you want me to do? I just want to pay my fair share of the programs that congress enacted (note: Congress set the current spending levels, NOT Obama). I have no problem with a vote on the matter. Just make sure that only those who will have their taxes increased get a vote. Or are you proposing that the 47% who pay no federal income tax should help decide? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/69 "2011-07-23T19:27:14Z")
Yes. Why not? This is a fucking democracy, not a plutocracy or meritocracy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/70 "2011-07-23T19:27:30Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Of course some people’s labor is more valuable than others. The problem is in how this is decided. It seems some forces want to declare everyone who works for a living to be dumb and unworthy of any reward whatsoever. Nevermind the fact that working people actually make the country function. > > What’s behind my characterization is the notion that the system can be set up in such a way that many people get effectively ripped off. We have a $14 trillion economy. A huge percentage of the wealth generated ends up in the hands of the top 5% or 10% of earners. Does anyone really think the value of labor is as disproportionate as the distribution of wealth? I’m going to need specifics. Take, say, a barber. Or a short-order cook. Maybe a janitor. I don’t know. Whatever. Name any three you want. Why aren’t they asking for more money in exchange for what they do? Who is ripping them off? How much wealth are they generating? Possibly I’m picking unfair examples. Cab driver? Bartender? Hotel manager? Who do you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/71 "2011-07-23T19:29:20Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Then that wouldn’t be a tax, but a donation. That’s not how taxes work. There are some things that are important enough that we force everyone to pay according to their ability, rather than having a few responsible souls carry a bunch of free riders. Of course it wouldn’t be a tax. That’s the point. If there are people who don’t feel that they are paying enough then they are free to pay more. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Considering how much money wealthy investors will lose, or simply not gain, in a deflationary spiral; it’s not really that strange to tax the richest classes at a higher marginal rate to save everyone else’s purchasing power. You can pay a marginal tax of 50+% & whine, but see the peons still be working and buying stuff; or you can watch your assets shrivel away at some large random factor, as the commoners lose their jobs & start talking revolution. Well then you would thing the rich would be biting at the chomp for tax increases. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/72 "2011-07-23T19:32:42Z")
I just have this feeling that you are going to come back with the whole conservative meme that all democracies fail when people realize they can vote themselves money. Well, that sure has happened in this country, except it is the wealthy that are voting themselves money, not the poor. The military industrial complex, a clear example of this, is alive and well. The law enforcement community with their futile and expensive drug war is another. Agriculture, same thing. Insurance industry, pharmaceutical companies, check. Welfare and Medicaid, not so much. This has been continually cut and chipped away at for decades. It is not a very popular position in this country to give poor people money, even centrists and many liberals think their should be requirements with welfare on job re-training. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/73 "2011-07-23T19:34:58Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Yes. Why not? This is a fucking democracy, not a plutocracy or meritocracy. Those people in Arizona agreed on a tax that they will all pay…not just some people. It is also, in theory at least, a temporary tax increase. Your point is that taxpayers will vote for a tax increase? Fine with me. Let those who pay a federal income tax vote on it then. Or, shall we vote on a federal sales tax? ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/74 "2011-07-23T19:43:37Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I just have this feeling that you are going to come back with the whole conservative meme that all democracies fail when people realize they can vote themselves money. Well, that sure has happened in this country, except it is the wealthy that are voting themselves money, not the poor. > > The military industrial complex, a clear example of this, is alive and well. The law enforcement community with their futile and expensive drug war is another. Agriculture, same thing. Insurance industry, pharmaceutical companies, check. > > Welfare and Medicaid, not so much. This has been continually cut and chipped away at for decades. It is not a very popular position in this country to give poor people money, even centrists and many liberals think their should be requirements with welfare on job re-training. And you would be incorrect. I agree with much of your post. I am no fan of crony capitalism. I am also in favor saving SS, Medicare and Medicaid. I do think that other welfare programs should be paid for and handled by the states and not from federal grants. That may result in much more focused scrutiny and less abuse. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/75 "2011-07-23T19:45:59Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > One also hears the whining from people who want to pay more taxes yet do nothing to increase their own tax burden _ad nauseam_. Not our own. _The upper margins of income of those with higher incomes, which does not necessarily mean ours._ You’re arguing against the legitimacy of a democratic government to tax. Why? > [@yorick73](#): > > I have no problem with a vote on the matter. Just make sure that only those who will have their taxes increased get a vote. Or are you proposing that the 47% who pay no federal income tax should help decide? It is generally the case that democratic governments are considered legitimate, while paying for the privilege to write laws is corruption. Do you dispute this? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/76 "2011-07-23T19:49:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m going to need specifics. > > Take, say, a barber. Or a short-order cook. Maybe a janitor. I don’t know. Whatever. Name any three you want. Why aren’t they asking for more money in exchange for what they do? Who is ripping them off? How much wealth are they generating? > > Possibly I’m picking unfair examples. Cab driver? Bartender? Hotel manager? Who do you have in mind? Patent attorney? Wall Street floor trader? Fortune 500 board member? Mega-church pastor? International newspaper magnate? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/77 "2011-07-23T19:49:25Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Your point is that taxpayers will vote for a tax increase? Fine with me. Let those who pay a federal income tax vote on it then. I really hope it never comes to a point that citizens are disenfranchised merely because they fail to reach some sort of minimum income. You do realize that’s what you’re proposing, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/78 "2011-07-23T19:54:01Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Patent attorney? Wall Street floor trader? Fortune 500 board member? Mega-church pastor? International newspaper magnate? Are you saying these folks are “skimming the value off the labor of the poor and sticking it in their own pockets”? Walk me through the example. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/79 "2011-07-23T19:55:49Z")
Any chance of heading off this ridiculous hijack now? There’s serious discussion to be had about the specific debt crisis we face, not some generic kooky discussion about how big our erections get from crushing plebes. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/80 "2011-07-23T19:56:30Z")
How did you know I wasn’t naming more “underpaid” professions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045.md?page=5)