# Are the GOP rooting for total economic collapse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045 "2011-07-22T23:06:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/81 "2011-07-23T19:57:28Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > How did you know I wasn’t naming more “underpaid” professions? That’s why I asked, with a question mark and everything. If you’re saying they’re underpaid, then I’m just as happy to hear how the value of their labor is being skimmed off. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/82 "2011-07-23T19:58:04Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Any chance of heading off this ridiculous hijack now? There’s serious discussion to be had about the specific debt crisis we face, not some generic kooky discussion about how big our erections get from crushing plebes. That’s a Freudian slip if ever I heard one. Had erections been mentioned before? So do you get an erection from “crushing” others? When did you first know you were a sadist? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/83 "2011-07-23T20:01:32Z")
How in the world could that be a fruedian slip? What other phrase was I intending to use but accidentally replaced it with that one? I’m asking (probably on behalf of a significant portion of the thread’s readership) that you take this generic “do rich people really deserve to be rich? should poor people be eaten!?” hijack elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/84 "2011-07-23T20:07:22Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Not our own. _The upper margins of income of those with higher incomes, which does not necessarily mean ours._ You’re arguing against the legitimacy of a democratic government to tax. Why? I’m not arguing against the legitimacy of a democratic government to tax in order to pay for the legitimate functioning of government. Taxing in order to redistribute, on the other hand, is a different animal altogether. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > It is generally the case that democratic governments are considered legitimate, while paying for the privilege to write laws is corruption. Do you dispute this? Not one bit. That being said, though, any proposal to tax an individual to give to another should be a decision left to those who pay the tax. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/85 "2011-07-23T20:12:32Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’m not arguing against the legitimacy of a democratic government to tax in order to pay for the legitimate functioning of government. Taxing in order to redistribute, on the other hand, is a different animal altogether. But that’s what we’ve got. Decades worth of “adjustments to tax policy” which have had the effect of redistributing wealth from the bottom 99% to the top 1%, as well as putting the nation deeper in debt. How is that not a problem, but fixing it would be? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/86 "2011-07-23T20:17:16Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That’s why I asked, with a question mark and everything. If you’re saying they’re underpaid, then I’m just as happy to hear how the value of their labor is being skimmed off. I have no opinion on patent attorneys, actually. I named occupations that you would be able to recognize as making more money than the blue-collar/no-collar workers you mentioned. I asked _how_ you _knew_, not if you knew; and you did know. So, think about that. We know that some jobs are valued less, are lower prestige, even where they are skilled labor &/or vital to society. And some jobs are valued more, are higher prestige, even where they are functionally redundant. Pay demanded by a given person follows his expectation of pay, not some kind of objective analysis of work-value (assuming that’s possible). If you want that service, you’ll tend to pay close to what is asked or not get it. So social prestige may be more important than a careful analysis of service provided in determining incomes. A cab driver is paid a bit less because he expects to be, a physician a bit more because he expects to be, and the social strata self-reinforce. What’s scary is if this becomes a vicious cycle, with prestige outstripping utility in future work-value pricing. Upper incomes could rise relative to inflation while lower incomes fall relative to inflation, as appears to have been happening in this country for the last 25 years–and perhaps only because of social constructions of prestige. In such an environment, people who would have made good cab drivers, say, may have to go to business school & compete in a crowded white-collar job market for jobs they’re less good at, just to provide satisfactorily for their children. If this lowers the quality of work in the abandoned profession, that’s a deadweight loss in quality of life & sustainability of that profession’s skills and technologies. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/87 "2011-07-23T20:27:59Z")
Back to the thread. The Repubs are not rooting for an ]economic collapse. They are deliberately causing it. McConnell said his intent was to make Obama a one term president. That is a strange goal when there are so many pressing problems to solve. Boner has been trying to keep the debt ceiling from being raised. It is always done after a little bitching for political purposes. . But they always did it. What is different this time? The Repubs believe they can cream the Dems in the next election if the economy gets even worse. So they will make it worse. The problem is most Americans know who caused this mess . They also know the fix is to raise taxes of the thieves on top . This information does not penetrate the Repub/Tea bagger bubble. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/88 "2011-07-23T20:28:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I really hope it never comes to a point that citizens are disenfranchised merely because they fail to reach some sort of minimum income. You do realize that’s what you’re proposing, right? I think that it speaks to the inherent unfairness of saying that “We need to raise more revenue, so let’s put it on the backs of other people.” Of course I’ll vote for my neighbor paying more taxes if I pay none. It’s class warfare bullshit and the very reason why we need a flat tax (with generous exemptions for living expenses). That way if we are proposing “revenue enhancement” then it is coming out of mine, yours, Warren Buffett’s, and the guy next door’s pocket. I drive on the same roads that Bill Gates does. Why should he pay a higher percentage of his income than me? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/89 "2011-07-23T20:31:30Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I have no opinion on patent attorneys, actually. I named occupations that you would be able to recognize as making more money than the blue-collar/no-collar workers you mentioned. > > I asked _how_ you _knew_, not if you knew; and you did know. So, think about that. I didn’t know. I guessed – and knew I was guessing – which is why I phrased it in the form of a question. > [@](#): > > We know that some jobs are valued less, are lower prestige, even where they are skilled labor &/or vital to society. And some jobs are valued more, are higher prestige, even where they are functionally redundant. > > Pay demanded by a given person follows his expectation of pay, not some kind of objective analysis of work-value (assuming that’s possible). If you want that service, you’ll tend to pay close to what is asked or not get it. I’m with you so far, but don’t see how that bears on whether the rich are _“skimming the value off the labor of the poor and sticking it in their own pockets.”_ I’ve read through the rest of it, and still don’t see anything that actually bears on _ **that** _ point. You explain, for example, why a physician expects to be paid more than a cab driver– > [@](#): > > A cab driver is paid a bit less because he expects to be, a physician a bit more because he expects to be, and the social strata self-reinforce. –but not how that means one is skimming value off the labor of the other; just that both seem to agree as to how their labor should be valued. > [@](#): > > Upper incomes could rise relative to inflation while lower incomes fall relative to inflation, as appears to have been happening in this country for the last 25 years–and perhaps only because of social constructions of prestige. Again, it sounds like folks on both sides of the equation simply agree as to how we should value labor on, well, both sides of the equation; you’re not actually saying that either side is being _ **inaccurate** _ in such valuations, merely that they agree on such valuations. Who am I to argue with such agreement? I don’t know that they’re inaccurate, only that they agree. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/90 "2011-07-23T20:49:09Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I drive on the same roads that Bill Gates does. Why should he pay a higher percentage of his income than me? In all likelihood he pays a much \*lower \*percentage than you. Why should that be? If it’s a higher one, it’s essentially because that higher percentage still has much less effect on him and his life than your lower one does on you. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/91 "2011-07-23T20:58:39Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I drive on the same roads that Bill Gates does. Why should he pay a higher percentage of his income than me? Depending on how one defines income: From a non-ideological view and purely technical point of view, because he is deriving greater indirect benefits on the returns to that infrastructure. From a practical point of view, if higher income groups do not participate in a significant fashion in funding, one tends to generate economically bad outcomes. If one was in a world of truly perfectly efficient outcomes, this could not matter. But we are not. Despite American extremism, one can be an economic liberal (conservative) and still recognise these things. ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/92 "2011-07-23T21:27:21Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I drive on the same roads that Bill Gates does. Why should he pay a higher percentage of his income than me? There are a few problems with this argument that pop out at me. First, say you make 100k per year. He will pay the same percentage on that amount. Second, his income is as high as it is because of the people who use the road to go to the store to buy his products. Those products would not be produced if his employees didn’t drive to work on those roads. If you’re going to suggest a flat tax, why not propose a flat income? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/93 "2011-07-23T21:37:30Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that it speaks to the inherent unfairness of saying that “We need to raise more revenue, so let’s put it on the backs of other people.” Of course I’ll vote for my neighbor paying more taxes if I pay none. It’s class warfare bullshit and the very reason why we need a flat tax (with generous exemptions for living expenses). That way if we are proposing “revenue enhancement” then it is coming out of mine, yours, Warren Buffett’s, and the guy next door’s pocket. > > I drive on the same roads that Bill Gates does. Why should he pay a higher percentage of his income than me? Why should he pay a lower percentage? Buffet made that clear when he said his secretary pays double his rate. The fact is they evade taxes besides getting frequent tax cuts.’ Buffet said this is class war and his class is winning. It should be pretty simple to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/94 "2011-07-23T21:39:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that it speaks to the inherent unfairness of saying that “We need to raise more revenue, so let’s put it on the backs of other people.” You’re assuming that will be the outcome. How do you know a majority won’t vote for a flat tax? It’s unfair to exclude people from societal decision making _merely_ because they are poor. It is also unfair to tax people more _merely_ because they are rich. This is why _everyone_ needs to be involved in the decision-making - the poor because how the government is funded and run affects them, the rich because it’s important not to simply strip them of wealth because other people are greedy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/95 "2011-07-23T21:46:17Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > _\_ > > Back in the 1990’s, I remember seeing “Starve the Beast” referenced in _U.S. News and World Report._ It was seriously claimed by a few Senators as a justification for deficits even then. > > There is a wing of the GOP that makes no secret of its opposition to entitlements. Newt Gingrich denounced Bob Dole as “tax collector for the welfare state,” as if that were a bad thing. > > This is not a secret, let alone tinfoil hat time. This is what the Norquist/Gingrich/T.E.A. Party axis has explicitly campaigned on for 15-20 years. Exactly. Yes, they want as much debt and as big an economic collapse as possible, because they think they can use it to rip away the parts of the government they don’t like. They’d be perfectly happy with another Great Depression or worse as long as it let them destroy the Ultimate Evil of “socialism” like Social Security and Medicare and public education. They are willing to destroy the [del]country[/del] village to save it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/96 "2011-07-23T21:56:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Of course some people’s labor is more valuable than others. The problem is in how this is decided. It seems some forces want to declare everyone who works for a living to be dumb and unworthy of any reward whatsoever. Nevermind the fact that working people actually make the country function. “How this is decided”? It’s decided by people offering their labor to others, and getting whatever price it is worth. If your labor has no value to people, you won’t get paid. There’s no master plan, no evil Svengali deciding to rip off the poor working man. There are only free people voluntarily making deals with each other, trading service for service. Of course, some people want more than what they can get through voluntary exchange. So they look to the heavy hand of government to extract more for them from other people than they could otherwise get. That includes rich crony capitalists who bend government to their will, AND it includes working people who vote for politicians who promise to use force to get them more wealth than they can achieve freely. > [@](#): > > What’s behind my characterization is the notion that the system can be set up in such a way that many people get effectively ripped off. We have a $14 trillion economy. A huge percentage of the wealth generated ends up in the hands of the top 5% or 10% of earners. Does anyone really think the value of labor is as disproportionate as the distribution of wealth? Yes, of course it is. China has about 5 times as much labor as the U.S., and it has 1/5 the economy. Why do you think that is, if labor is responsible for all our wealth, or even a large fraction of it? For that matter, why aren’t country GDP’s proportional to the size of the labor force? How can North Korea be so poor, while Hong Kong is so rich? The fact is, the rapid increase in wealth in the U.S. was due to capitalism - the ability of capital to flow freely, so that it could accumulate in areas where it does the most good. The wealth of the U.S. is due to the protection of personal property rights, which gives people incentive to work harder, work smarter, and take risks. The wealth of the free world is due in large part to the fact that free markets allow for competition, which spurs massive amounts of innovation. For this to occur, people have to be allowed to keep what they earn, to be rewarded for taking risks, and to be free to make choices. Labor in and of itself has no value whatsoever. If you spend half your day digging a hole, and the other half filling it in, you have created nothing of value. What brings value to labor is when it is employed in the creation of things people want and need, and what magnifies its value is capital investment in infrastructure that allows laborers to manipulate technology and communicate and be part of an enterprise that allows them to focus on what they do best. The left never wants to admit that rich people generally get where they are because they have provided more value to others than a laborer has. A person who invents a new tool that saves an hour of work per week for 100,000 people has created more value than a thousand laborers will in their entire lives. A person who comes up with a corporate structure that lowers costs for groceries and clothing by $100/year for 50 million people has done more for the greater good and provided more GDP growth to society than 100,000 extra laborers would. The fact that such people accumulate capital is a _good_ thing. It’s a feature of capitalism that money tends to flow to those who make more productive use of it than others. And that value DOES trickle down to the worker. Why do you think the _poverty line_ in the United States is more than twice the world average income? Why do you think an unskilled laborer in the U.S. can make 10/hr when the same unskilled worker in China makes .50/hr? It’s because the worker in the U.S. benefits from being a part of an infrastructure built through capital investment. His labor is magnified in productivity through the process of rich people trying to get richer by creating more efficient processes and better goods and services. Screw with this system at your peril. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/97 "2011-07-23T22:04:01Z")
[http://jimhightower.com/node/7502](http://jimhightower.com/node/7502) The financial reform act passed last year airs the pay discrepancy between workers and execs at major corporations. The Repubs are listening to lobbyists and will try to kill the reporting provision. The corps like banks are happy to take billions in tax money, but now they are flexing their muscles again. We know who they work for. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/98 "2011-07-23T22:16:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > “How this is decided”? It’s decided by people offering their labor to others, and getting whatever price it is worth. No it isn’t. It’s decided by businesses squeezing the maximum amount of labor in return for the minimum amount of pay and consideration they can give in return. And the workers in general are in no position to just walk away, we’ve made sure of that with “labor discipline”, AKA making sure that there’s always a dearth of jobs and that not having a job is terrifying. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > For this to occur, people have to be allowed to keep what they earn, to be rewarded for taking risks, and to be free to make choices. Nonsense. People aren’t rewarded for taking risks, they are rewarded for putting other people at risk. Those rich people you worship risk the wealth, careers and lives of other people, not their own. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The left never wants to admit that rich people generally get where they are because they have provided more value to others than a laborer has. A person who invents a new tool that saves an hour of work per week for 100,000 people has created more value than a thousand laborers will in their entire lives. And neither of them is likely to be the person who ends up with the profits. And that tool would be worth nothing without the laborers. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The fact that such people accumulate capital is a _good_ thing. It’s a feature of capitalism that money tends to flow to those who make more productive use of it than others. No, it flows towards the people who are the most psychopathic, the most destructive, the most willing to ruin the lives of everyone else for profit. And in a consumer driven economy like ours, it is not a good idea for those consumers to have less and less money. Even the old time robber barons knew better than that, but modern corporate America makes them look socialist. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/99 "2011-07-23T22:23:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But that’s what we’ve got. Decades worth of “adjustments to tax policy” which have had the effect of redistributing wealth from the bottom 99% to the top 1%, as well as putting the nation deeper in debt. How is that not a problem, but fixing it would be? By what mechanism do we redistribute wealth from the bottom 99% to the top 1%? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045/100 "2011-07-23T22:30:37Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > By what mechanism do we redistribute wealth from the bottom 99% to the top 1%? Raising taxes and fees while lowering services and wages for the bottom +90%, while doing the opposite for the top few percent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-gop-rooting-for-total-economic-collapse/590045.md?page=6)