# Are the Hutaree Militia guilty of sedition? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681 "2012-02-13T05:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/1 "2012-02-13T05:44:46Z")
7 people go on trial this week for sedition and weapons charges; all are members of a group that call themselves the Hutaree Militia. They say their talk of killing police officers and overthrowing the government was innocent fun. [ > [@](#): > > “I’m going to fight it tooth and nail,” David Stone’s wife and co-defendant, Tina Mae Stone, said during a break in jury selection last week. “It was just a bunch of good ol’ boys out to have fun. We did survival stuff. I did it mostly to spend time with my husband. People tell me, `good luck.’ I don’t need luck. I’ve got God on my side.” ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_FBI\_RAIDS\_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-13-00-16-31](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-13-00-16-31)) The group doesn’t deny that they talked of these things, which is prolly smart since the Feds have recordings that have been submitted into evidence. But attorneys for the defendants say they were just exercising their 1st (and 2nd) Amendment rights. [ > [@](#): > > “Regardless of the charges in the indictment, there is no dispute that the aims of the Hutaree militia included the free exercise of their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights, including freedom of speech, association, assembly and the right to bear arms,” said the lawyers, who represent David Stone Jr. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_FBI\_RAIDS\_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-13-00-16-31](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-13-00-16-31)) The government says “nuh uh”. [ > [@](#): > > The indictment, however, describes a more sinister band. The government says the Hutaree, based in Michigan’s Lenawee County, was an anti-government group committed to fighting authorities who belong to a so-called “New World Order.” The defendants are accused of conspiring to someday ambush and kill a police officer, then attack the funeral procession with explosives and trigger a broader revolt against the U.S. government. > > “The court will hear testimony and examine evidence concerning this particular group’s hatred for, and desire to do physical harm to, law enforcement,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher Graveline said. > > The government has more than 100 hours of audio and video, including the recording of David Stone, 47, apparently talking about police. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_FBI\_RAIDS\_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-13-00-16-31](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-13-00-16-31)) > [@David Stone](#): > > I think we gotta just start huntin’ `em here pretty soon. … They’re easy to find, they’re sittin’ alongside the road and they got these red and blue lights on top of their car. One of the co-defendants replied: > [@Michael Meeks](#): > > It’s like a Kmart super special or whatever. It’s a jury trial. So there’s really 2 questions here: 1. Are they guilty of sedition, or were they simply “exercising their 1st Amendment rights”? 2. Will the Feds be able to prove their case and obtain convictions? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/2 "2012-02-13T05:55:06Z")
Well the quoted text does sound kinda like joking around, not serious planning. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/3 "2012-02-13T06:16:04Z")
Hating someone and wanting to do harm to them is not, as far as I know, against the law. I can see them getting nailed on various weapons and explosives charges, but I don’t see a specific act of sedition cited in this account. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/4 "2012-02-13T06:24:01Z")
I don’t really think being an asshole with delusions of tough guy should be criminalized. And then we have the famous patriot, G. Gordon Liddy: > **[G. Gordon Liddy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Gordon_Liddy)** > > George Gordon Battle Liddy (November 30, 1930 – March 30, 2021) was an American lawyer and FBI agent who was convicted of conspiracy, burglary, and illegal wiretapping for his role in the Watergate scandal during the Nixon administration. > Working alongside E. Howard Hunt, Liddy organized and directed the burglary of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate building in May and June 1972. After five of Liddy's operatives were arrested inside the DNC offices on June 17, 197... (Yeah, sure, its a wiki, but it happened…) August 26, 1994 > [@](#): > > …Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they’re going to be wearing bulletproof vests." … "They’ve got a big target on there, ATF. Don’t shoot at that, because they’ve got a vest on underneath that. Head shots, head shots… Kill the sons of bitches… Firmly scolded, as I recall. “Tut tut” was said, and a forefinger might very well have been waggled in admonishment. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/5 "2012-02-13T17:12:15Z")
Nitpick: The first count of the [indictment](http://www.scribd.com/doc/29130653/Hutaree-indictment#) (pdf) is not sedition but “seditious conspiracy” as defined thus: > [@](#): > > the HUTAREE, did knowingly conspire, confederate, and agree with each other and other persons known and unknown to the Grand Jury, to levy war against the United States, to oppose by force the authority of the Government of the United States, and to prevent, hinder, and delay by force the execution of any United States law. The indictment cites the defendants’ acquisition of weapons and “military-style training” as acts that furthered that conspiracy. I don’t think it’s all just about the statements made around the campfire. There’s a separate question that I haven’t really seen raised: The charge accuses them of a conspiracy against federal authority, but the acts that it cites all seem to refer to plans to use violence against _local_ law enforcement. I wonder if there’s enough of a federal hook here? Maybe in all those recorded conversations, there are also references to federal law enforcement, but I’m not sure that I see that in the indictment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/6 "2012-02-13T17:30:14Z")
They had a pretty concrete plan to murder law enforcement officials. I suspect some will get off on the basis that they did not substantially assist the conspiracy (particularly since the underlying murder was prevented). I suspect Mr. Stone is SOL. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/7 "2012-02-13T17:53:26Z")
Thanks, **Tom** , for that link and for the info; all I knew is what I had read in AP stories when they were first arrested and then the story I linked in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/8 "2012-02-13T19:06:21Z")
Conspiracy charges are notoriously easier to make stick than the “real” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/9 "2012-02-14T19:22:42Z")
[ > [@](#): > > Federal authorities worried about a perceived threat to the government and President Barack Obama “manipulated” facts and greatly overreached when they charged seven members of a Midwest militia with conspiring to rebel against the United States, a defense attorney told jurors Tuesday. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_FBI\_RAIDS\_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-14-13-38-21](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-02-14-13-38-21)) I can understand the argument, and think it’s a potentially valid one. Except that prosecutors have over a hundred hours of videotape to pull evidence from, so it’s the defendants’ own words that are going to be used against them. For instance: > [@](#): > > (Assistant U.S. Attorney Christopher) Graveline showed the jury a video clip of leader David Stone declaring, “Welcome to the revolution.” So that means the defense argument is going to come down to something like this: > [@](#): > > Todd Shanker, attorney for David Stone Jr., acknowledged there are “offensive statements” on the recordings but said the words were “almost fantasy” made among people who were comfortable with each other. > > “These are extreme charges. … They are going to fail and they are going to fail miserably,” said Shanker, adding later that the Hutaree really was more of a “social club” than any organized militia. Did that kind of thing work for the Montana milita group (the Freemen?) or the Texas militia group? A quote in yesterday’s story brought up what I think is going to be an important question in this trial: does the government need to wait until violence occurs before it can bring the smackdown? I note also that the defense is saying that the undercover agent facilitated some of the groups travel, etc. Did that make a difference in the trial of the guys who wanted to blow up the army base in New Jersey? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/10 "2012-03-27T18:05:19Z")
[ > [@](#): > > U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts granted requests for acquittal on the most serious charges: conspiring to commit sedition, or rebellion, against the U.S. and conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction. Her decision affects all seven militia members who have been on trial since Feb. 13. > > Only weapons charges remain against two of the defendants. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_FBI\_RAIDS\_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-27-13-54-57](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-27-13-54-57)) I’m not sure what it means exactly that the judge “granted requests for acquittal”; does that mean there was a trial and this is the verdict, or is it somehow (as it seems) different than that? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/11 "2012-03-27T18:27:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [ > > I’m not sure what it means exactly that the judge “granted requests for acquittal”; does that mean there was a trial and this is the verdict, or is it somehow (as it seems) different than that? I know judges can order a [URL=“[Verdict - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_verdict)”]Directed Verdict]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_FBI\_RAIDS\_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-27-13-54-57](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-27-13-54-57)) and that would appear to be the case here. The defense made their case that no reasonable jury could convict based on the evidence presented by the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/12 "2012-03-28T16:48:34Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I know judges can order a [Directed Verdict](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_verdict) and that would appear to be the case here. The defense made their case that no reasonable jury could convict based on the evidence presented by the prosecution. The prosecutors didn’t have any evidence that the Hutaree guys took any actions to back up their talk. The judge basically said, “Uh, dudes? You know that a ‘conspiracy’ requires people to actually _do_ something, right?” When the prosecutors just kinda stared back blankly, with an oh-crap-I-knew-I-forgot-something expression, the judge thew out the charges. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/13 "2012-03-30T03:22:59Z")
[David Stone, Joshua Stone plead guilty to gun charges](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_RAIDS_MILITIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-29-22-26-47). Outside the courthouse, he spoke briefly to reporters, referring to himself as a “stand-up true American patriot”. He continued: > [@](#): > > The elder Stone said the trial’s outcome likely will stir anxieties about the government among other militias. > > “Now they know their paranoia is true,” he said, referring to the FBI’s tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-hutaree-militia-guilty-of-sedition/612681/14 "2012-03-30T03:28:40Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > The prosecutors didn’t have any evidence that the Hutaree guys took any actions to back up their talk. The judge basically said, “Uh, dudes? You know that a ‘conspiracy’ requires people to actually _do_ something, right?” IANAL, but AFAIK this is not completely correct. [ > [@](#): > > Conspiracy law usually does not require proof of specific intent by the defendants to injure any specific person to establish an illegal agreement. Instead, usually the law only requires the conspirators have agreed to engage in a certain illegal act. This is sometimes described as a “general intent” to violate the law. > > In United States v. Shabani, 513 U.S. 10 (1994) the United States Supreme Court ruled: U.S. Congress intended to adopt the common law definition of conspiracy, which does not make the doing of any act other than the act of conspiring a condition of liability" at least insofar as to establish a violation of a narcotics conspiracy under 21 U.S.C. § 846. Therefore, the Government need not prove the commission of any overt acts in furtherance of those narcotics conspiracies prohibited by 21 U.S.C. § 846. The Shabani case illustrates that it is a matter of legislative prerogative whether to require an overt step, or not to require an overt step in any conspiracy statute. The court compares the need to prove an overt step to be criminally liable under the conspiracy provision of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970, while there is no such requirement under 21 U.S.C. § 846. > > The Supreme Court pointed out that common law did not require proof of an overt step, and the need to prove it for a federal conspiracy conviction requires Congress to specifically require proof of an overt step to accomplish the conspiracy. It is a legislative choice on a statute by statute basis. ]([Criminal conspiracy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)#United_States))