# Are the Iraqi insurgents like "Red Dawn"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483 "2004-08-25T18:43:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/21 "2004-08-25T23:36:58Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > The Iraqi experience with elections is not a good one. They watched Saddam routinely achieve 100% of the vote. They watched America make an international laughingstock out of its own democracy in 2000. They know very well how to spell ‘hanging chad’. It is astounding that you would compare Saddam getting 100% of the vote with Florida debacle. There aren’t enough eye rolling smiles to convey how much my eyes are rolling, but I’ll try. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Furthermore, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t paint America with such a broad brush. It was the election procedures of _Florida_, a single state of the union, that was the problem. I’d hardly call it a “laughingstock” either. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/22 "2004-08-25T23:41:36Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Then when Sadr is dealt with, then that ‘boogeyman’ will be defeated as well. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that if Sadr is killed, captured, or surrenders and joins the political process, then the insurgency will end? Will you put your money where your mouth is? > [@](#): > > Maybe not, but this ‘oh lets laugh when Iraq and America fucks up’ attitude isn’t going to get anyone anywhere. Give these people a friggin chance. We invade them, we occupy them, we tell them what kind of government to form, we give billions away in bogus reconstruction contracts, we lose 1,000 troops, we’re under fire every day, we’re feeding the cause of Islamic extremism, and we’re supposed to give some more? No. We shouldn’t have gone there in the first place, and we shouldn’t be there now. The Iraqis should make their own chances, it should be up to the Americans to give them more. I have no idea what inspires someone to be an apologist for a failed plan of invading countries, but an altruistic love of peace and freedom sure can’t be it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/23 "2004-08-25T23:43:02Z")
:smack: … it should NOT be up to the Americans to give them more. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/24 "2004-08-26T00:22:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well its a shame really, considering the sympathy he has, no one cares if he succeeds or not. Iran cares, and they are willing to put their money where their mouth is: [Iran arming insurgents, says Iraq](http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1092048385376&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037) > [@](#): > > With fighting raging for a fifth day in Najaf, Iraq’s interim defence minister today accused neighbouring Iran of sending weapons to Shiite insurgents here. > > Defence Minister Hazem Shaalan made the comments during an interview broadcast on the Arab-language television network al-Arabiya. > > “There are Iranian-made weapons that have been found in the hands of criminals in Najaf who received these weapons from across the Iranian border,” Shaalan said. This news puts the lie to the Bushista line that this insurgency is just a few thousand Baathists that will soon burn out for lack of support. Just as the Viet Cong fought for decades as clients of the USSR and Red China, these rebels will thrive on Iranian oil money. Sooner or later, whether it is a Republican president or a Democrat, America will pull a Nixon; simply declare victory and go home. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/25 "2004-08-26T00:27:40Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > ``` > You could compare the Iraqi insurgents with american colonial forces too. Ignorant*, dirty* and heavily armed ! :) Guerrila tactics. (* = British point of view) > > ``` For the record, the American colonies managed to produce a regular army to fight and defeat the Brittish. Does anyone think that there is just one group in Iraq fighting? Does anyone think al Sadr’s group view themselves as patriots or are taking advantage of the power vacuum left by Saddam to grab a chunk for themselves? And I’m willing to bet that there are foreigners there from Iran and Syria and other places hoping to prevent a pro-American government from being established. > [@Ravenman](#): > > No. We shouldn’t have gone there in the first place, and we shouldn’t be there now. The Iraqis should make their own chances, it should be up to the Americans to give them more. Maybe we shouldn’t be there, but I predict very bad things will happen if we just up and leave without some kind of permenant government in palce. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/26 "2004-08-26T00:31:52Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Because he let numerous criminals and thugs join his militia. He could of gone the route of political action, but he didn’t. Comments about the make up of his militia is not the same thing as a citation in support of your assertions about Sadr in the character of “no one cares if he succeeds or not”. Your personal conjectures based on odd bits of information and misinformation (like Clwyd’s), while clinically interesting (IMHO), is not exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for. The question remains the same and unanswered. In hopes of being more clear, I ask differently as follows: Assuming that your comment about the make up of Sadr’s crew implies that you think the evidence that “no one cares if he succeeds or not” (also assuming this phrase is intentionial hyperbole on your part) is a certain conclusion from the make up of his militia. I ask these two questions 1) What evidence do you have that the make up of Sadr’s troops necessarily means that “no one cares if he succeeds or not”? 2) What evidence do you have that Sadr’s troop composition profile matches the criteria you established while answering the previous question? Or, alternately, you could provide a link to a poll or some such something or another showing that Sadr’s success is irrelevant to most Iraqis. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > …the political alternatives that have openly attacked the US army and Interim government which are unpopular and unsupported by majority. Once again, I ask politely for a citation for an assertion you’ve made. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No it isn’t he’s not that dumb, he wants to keep the Coalition forces there as long as he can to garner support to legitimise his resistance, he knows if it goes, and a successful democratic Iraqi government is there, his opportunity will be gone. Do you have any evidence to support these claim_s_, or is it more of your personal conjecture? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > :rolleyes: yet two percent would vote for him to become president of Iraq. They don’t support Allawi as much because they seem him not doing enough to combat the assholes like Sadr and AlQueda from launching attacks. Their support and the reasons for it differ widely. The 68% number reflects views of reality. The 2% number reflects views on tangentially related (at best) hypotheticals. **Sadr gets 68% ‘aproval rating’ doing what he is doing.** He doesn’t have his ‘rating’ because he is running for president. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/27 "2004-08-26T00:56:38Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Iran cares, and they are willing to put their money where their mouth is: It’s not entirely clear how true those reports of Iranian interference are. [Iran denys messing around in Iraq](http://www.iranmania.com/News/ArticleView/Default.asp?NewsCode=24882&NewsKind=Current%20Affairs): > [@](#): > > Iranian President Mohammad Khatami denied any “provocative interference” in Iraq and any support for radical Shiite militia leader Moqtada Sadr, the official news agency IRNA reported Monday. > “Not only has Iran never had any provocative interference in Iraq, but it has always tried to help implement peace, unity and convergence of groups in Iraq,” Khatami told reporters in the shrine to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic republic. And relations between the two countries are good enough that [Allawi plans to visit Tehran:](http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=8/26/2004&Cat=2&Num=003) > [@](#): > > Iran has invited Allawi to the country and the Iraqi prime minister is aware of the importance of this visit, Jalali told IRNA. > He stressed that the security of Iran and Iraq is intertwined, adding that peaceful ties should be established between the two countries. The accusations against Iran appear to be coming from defense minister Hazem Shaalan, rather than Allawi (by your own link and [here](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-08/19/content_1824129.htm)). There appears to be an internal struggle going on in the Iraqi government about this, as Prime Minister Allawi has ["forbidden Defense Minister Hazem Shaalan and Interior Minister Falah al-Naquib from speaking publicly about the Sadr movement](http://www.juancole.com/2004_08_01_juancole_archive.html#109332974289502256), yet they continue to do so. Things were _so much simpler_ a few months ago, when everyone thought the US would appoint Ahmed Chalabi to be the democratic-president-of-a-free-Iraq-for-life. It’s too bad he turned out to be an Iranian secret agent. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/28 "2004-08-26T02:51:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Let me get this straight. Are you saying that if Sadr is killed, captured, or surrenders and joins the political process, then the insurgency will end? Will you put your money where your mouth is? Jesus H Chri… No! But I do believe there will be a decreased number of organised and effective opposition to the Interim government in the style he’s portrayed. Everyone seems to forget Al Sistani and his powerful calming effect on the people, and this is a guy who supports the Interim government. > [@](#): > > Iran cares, and they are willing to put their money where their mouth is: Well, I meant the Iraqi people on a whole, should of made it bit clearer, apologies. > [@](#): > > misinformation I’d hardly call it misinformation, that came from the _guardian_ which opposed the war, and opposed American intervention in Iraq as a whole. > [@](#): > > 1. What evidence do you have that the make up of Sadr’s troops necessarily means that “no one cares if he succeeds or not”? 2) What evidence do you have that Sadr’s troop composition profile matches the criteria you established while answering the previous question? Well of course (backtracking here) people care if he succeeds, but if he doesn’t no tears will be shed for him, he’s a criminal, who’s used the people of Najaf and surrounding areas to carry out his bidding mostly because they have no jobs and no place to go, sure, you’ll see some who will do it out of ideological purposes and nationalism, but thats in the minority, if he was so popular to Iraqis as people seem to want to point out, it would be quite strange to have large amounts of the population of Najaf hate him. If he had any decency or any respect for the Iraqi people, he wouldn’t have taken the most holiest site in Shia Islam hostage. > [@](#): > > What evidence do you have that Sadr’s troop composition profile matches the criteria you established while answering the previous question? Go to Blogs. And since some poor are actually crooks and criminals, well, there you go. > [@](#): > > And I’m willing to bet that there are foreigners there from Iran and Syria and other places hoping to prevent a pro-American government from being established. They know if a democratic government gets elected there, and succeeds, its the end for them in the long run. > [@](#): > > Do you have any evidence to support these claims, or is it more of your personal conjecture? My conjecture, but it isn’t like he’s going to declare that he wants them to stay to increase his legitimacy is he? > [@](#): > > This news puts the lie to the Bushista line that this insurgency is just a few thousand Baathists that will soon burn out for lack of support. Just as the Viet Cong fought for decades as clients of the USSR and Red China, these rebels will thrive on Iranian oil money But the thing is, the South Vietnamese government didn’t have any legitmacy from the start, or guarantee any rights for its citizens and basically just treated them like shit, maybe we’ve not noticed this yet in Iraq, but I’d hardly call the comparison a good one. If Bush and Co try to keep the moral highground (barring Abu Gharib) with the Iraqi people, it may very well burn out. Plenty of Iraqis hate the Iranians, there is no love lost between them. > [@](#): > > We invade them, we occupy them, we tell them what kind of government to form, we give billions away in bogus reconstruction contracts, we lose 1,000 troops, we’re under fire every day, we’re feeding the cause of Islamic extremism, and we’re supposed to give some more? No. We shouldn’t have gone there in the first place, and we shouldn’t be there now. The Iraqis should make their own chances, it should be up to the Americans to give them more. No we shouldn’t have gone there I agree. But we’re there now and we have a moral obligation to ourselves and to the Iraqis to see it through. Leaving them the prospect of their state turning out like another Afghanistan or Somalia is not what I would call very promising for our long term security. This isn’t going to turn out like another 79’ Shah being deposed. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what inspires someone to be an apologist for a failed plan of invading countries, but an altruistic love of peace and freedom sure can’t be it. I’m no apologist, what I do find surprising is how some people will nitpick at everything the US army does there just to see it fail. Talk about defeatism. Freedom comes at a price, and should never be given up no matter the cost. > [@](#): > > Using this smiley ( :roll eyes: ) does not help your argument I know, I just like using it as it is my favourite smiley 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/29 "2004-08-26T02:57:56Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The insurgents don’t seem to realise that they are the ones manipulated and used as puppets by their own leader Al Sadr, rather than Allawi, the thing is, Sadrs army is made up of crooks, prisoners, murders and poor people of Najaf and elsewhere in Iraq. “The resistance is made up of criminals” has been the standard excuse of dictators and invaders since the dawn of recorded history. > [@](#): > > They have very little legitimatcy in the eyes of the majority of Iraq, but they do recieve sympathy, this because of it fighting the ‘occupation’ Why the quotation marks? > [@](#): > > Ok, in essense yes, the Iraqi government is a puppet government until it can train its own armed forces to a standard where it can protect itself and its citizens from outside and internal attacks. The main thing everyone keeps forgetting is that there will be elections in January. No, I assure you it will continue to be a puppet government for years to come. Not unless the previous government was worse than the one they installed. All the more reason to support the interim government. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![WoodCM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7bcc69/32.png) [@WoodCM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodCM)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/30 "2004-08-26T03:08:55Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Related to the **Do Iraqis support the Interim government?** thread, but I didn’t want to hijack it too much. > > For those who may not be aware, “Red Dawn” was a movie where the US got invaded by the USSR and Cuba. A group of teenagers (led by Patrick Swayze) fought back against the occupiers using guerilla tactics, sabotage, and sniping. > > Now that we know the insurgents aren’t “foreign fighters”, could it be possible they aren’t really “bad guys” or terrorists but are fighting back against an occupying force? While I know they aren’t just attacking US soldiers, but other Iraqis, could the insurgents just be fighting a puppet government? > > If the US was invaded and they installed a government, wouldn’t we also fight it? > > It makes me wonder how much we’re really wanted there. On the other hand, I still think we can make things better than when Saddam is in charge. > > Moreover, I’m sure the average Iraqi doesn’t care one way or the other, just wants the fighting to end so they to get back to work and on with their families and lives. Comparing real life to bullshit movies. This is a great mistake, and you should forget all the movies you have ever seen. I realise that this is an impossibility. Therefore this post is utterly futile, yet I am moved to say these useless words, perhaps in the hopeless thought that you might just be a little changed by these words. What price these few words compared to all the thousands of hours of fakery you have seen? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/31 "2004-08-26T03:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > “The resistance is made up of criminals” has been the standard excuse of dictators and invaders since the dawn of recorded history. This is Iraqis saying this, no dictator. from the Guardian [http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1290819,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1290819,00.html) > [@](#): > > But opinions over the Mahdi army’s last stand are divided - with many in Najaf dismissing Moqtada al-Sadr’s supporters as both outsiders - including volunteers from Falluja - and thugs. > > “We suffered for 35 years under Saddam Hussein. He killed our clerics. He killed our poets. He killed our writers,” Kadhim Abdul Karim said, as US tanks and Humvees rattled past his street. “All our intellectuals left Iraq and our doctors left the country as well. Whatever happens next we want the Americans to stay.” > > He added: “We are typical Iraqis. Moqtada and his supporters are the Taliban of Najaf. You in the west have to understand this. We don’t want them.” > [@](#): > > No, I assure you it will continue to be a puppet government for years to come. I don’t how the US government could get away with this without having a full scale insurrection from the majority of Iraqis. > [@](#): > > All the more reason to support the interim government Until elections, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/32 "2004-08-26T04:28:05Z")
Ryan, you accept that 97% of Iraqi’s think the US are occupiers, 55% would feel safer if they left, and that Allawi has only 23% support. Yet your explanation for the lack of support for Allawi (a leader _installed by the occupiers that make people feel unsafe_) is that he is “not doing enough to combat the assholes like Sadr and AlQueda from launching attacks.” Instead of contorting yourself like a pretzel, how about you draw the obvious short, straight lines between the frickin’ dots, fer chrissakes, man. Ryan let me ask a theoretical question: > [@](#): > > You are the leader of a powerful nation with troops in another nation. There is an insurgency in that other nation. You have at your disposal a powerful propaganda machine. > > Your (current) justification for having troops in that other nation is that you are helping out the oppressed locals. > > However, you know that the reason for the insurgency is nationalism, and that the locals want your troops out, and that the insurgency enjoys widespread popular support (at least in terms of sentiment, if not actual participation). > > Do you: > > (a) publically accept the above > > or > > (b) use the propaganda machinery at your disposal to paint the insurgents as unpopular thugs, isolated madmen, terrorists, drug dealers, child molesters, religious fanatics, communists, backsliders, “crooks, prisoners, murders and poor people” etc so as to suggest they have no legitimacy, knowing that a signicant percentage of your home electorate will buy whatever crap you tell them (not mentioning any names)? If you choose (a), you are the only leader in a situation comparable to the above in the whole of history ever to have done so. If you choose (b) you are certainly breaking no new ground. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/33 "2004-08-26T06:21:59Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’d hardly call it misinformation, that came from the _guardian_ which opposed the war, and opposed American intervention in Iraq as a whole. I assume that you are addressing me. It would greatly enhance the clarity of your posts if you would be so kind as to accurately attribute the quotes that you use. As to the misinformation that I made reference to, it was indeed published in the Guardian. However, it was an _opinion_ piece, not a news story. It was the _opinions_ of a politician. The politician ‘misspoke’ about what the CPA poll said. Whether or not the politician knowingly ‘misspoke’ is a matter for conjecture. It is, after all quite possible that Clwyd is merely a simpleton who could not read the report well enough. However, the point remains that what Clwyd said is not true. The venue (the Guardian) for the faulty information (misinformation) is entirely irrelevant. No matter where Clwyd’s comments were published, they are still not true. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well of course (backtracking here) people care if he succeeds, but if he doesn’t no tears will be shed for him, he’s a criminal, who’s used the people of Najaf and surrounding areas to carry out his bidding mostly because they have no jobs and no place to go, sure, you’ll see some who will do it out of ideological purposes and nationalism, but thats in the minority, if he was so popular to Iraqis as people seem to want to point out, it would be quite strange to have large amounts of the population of Najaf hate him. If he had any decency or any respect for the Iraqi people, he wouldn’t have taken the most holiest site in Shia Islam hostage. These comments and conjectures do not actually constitute evidence. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Go to Blogs. And since some poor are actually crooks and criminals, well, there you go. This is the famous FOAF citation, I suppose. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > They know if a democratic government gets elected there, and succeeds, its the end for them in the long run. Do you even realize that you’ve started addressing the comments of another person here in the middle of your post? You pick up again with my comments immediately afterword. I strongly suggest that you accurately attribute the quotes that you use. There’s little else that will increase the clarity of your posts as immensely for so **very, very, very little effort**. If you need help to do this, it is available in the About This Message Board forum. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > My conjecture, but it isn’t like he’s going to declare that he wants them to stay to increase his legitimacy is he? As Sadr had a following prior to the invasion of Iraq, it doesn’t seem likely that he needs the occupation of Iraq to be continued to maintain his following. Instead, the fact that he already had followers suggests that he can remain an influential person in Iraq years from now when the American troops leave. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But the thing is, the South Vietnamese go… Now you’ve gone of again responding to who knows who. \*\*I strongly suggest that you accurately attribute the quotes that you use. \*\* There’s little else that will increase the clarity of your posts as immensely for so **very, very, very little effort**. If you need instruction on how to do this, it is available in the About This Message Board forum. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/34 "2004-08-26T06:31:01Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I know, I just like using it as it is my favourite smiley It is a prompt for your readers. It is like the applause signs at a TV studio. When you place a :rolleyes: readers know that they are to now roll their eyes at whatever you’re writing. Allow me be the one to tell you that this smiley face prompt of yours is superfluous, unnecessary and redundant. Readers already know when to roll their eyes at what you write. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/35 "2004-08-26T06:32:51Z")
> [@WoodCM](#): > > Comparing real life to bullshit movies. > This is a great mistake, and you should forget all the movies you have ever seen. I realise that this is an impossibility. Therefore this post is utterly futile, yet I am moved to say these useless words, perhaps in the hopeless thought that you might just be a little changed by these words. What price these few words compared to all the thousands of hours of fakery you have seen? FWIW, get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/36 "2004-08-26T06:48:23Z")
I thought it was a pretty good movie myself. Not in the same class as the Bircher’s [Invasion USA](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044750/). (I shall never forget the scene of that carload of liberals being swept away by the destruction of Hoover dam. 🙂 ) But still, a decent film, for the genre. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/37 "2004-08-26T13:24:32Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Leaving them the prospect of their state turning out like another Afghanistan or Somalia is not what I would call very promising for our long term security. I’m afraid you’ve got your analogies backwards. If you want to draw a parallel to Afghanistan, Americans are now in the place of being the Soviets: an invading foreign force unwanted by a large number of locals, who draw upon foreign support to try to kick them out. Having screwed things up, it is no more a smarter move for the US to stay than it was for the Soviets to stick around for ten years in an attempt to “see things through.” Bottom line, we’re losing on average two soldiers a day, the Iraqi people are NOT on our side, and they aren’t going to start liking us any more. What we really need is a country/a group of countries to step up and follow through after the invader leaves the invaded countries, as the US should have done in Afghanistan in 1991 and as other countries should do in Iraq in 2005. > [@](#): > > Freedom comes at a price, and should never be given up no matter the cost. Unless you happen to be on the front lines at the moment, those are pretty cheap words. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/38 "2004-08-26T14:54:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Unless you happen to be on the front lines at the moment, those are pretty cheap words. [soapbox sidebar] Despite the inexpensive costs of saying these words, the sentiment is still one that I like. The prices paid by our military, intel and other personel on the front lines are very hard to exaggerate. These are essential, crucial and dozens other words that mean the same things. Yet these are not the only prices paid. Nor are these the only prices necessary. Important, yet mundane recurring fees come due for all of us who are members of the electorate. Part of the price of freedom is keeping an eye on the gov and responding when they begin to have the appearances of misbehaving. When these drab, daily dues are current, they decrease the need for the more dramatic and more valiant prices that those on the front lines pay. But it’s hard to get excited about wading through politicians’ shit piles. Living humbly for the cause keeps people from having to die nobly for it. In the long run, it is the more efficient of the two payment methods. If only it were sexier, we wouldn’t have to ask that so many pay the dearest price. Thank God that the price is paid. [/soapbox sidebar] ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/39 "2004-08-26T15:12:22Z")
Clarifying some things… for Ryan and others. - No one here is rooting for Iraqis to become a dictatorship again. We’d love to see them become something better. We just don’t close our eyes and dream about it. Nor do many like the methods being used. - Being very rational and logical would mean that Iraqis should stop the insurgency and get on with their lives. I doubt someone thinks Iraqis are better off fighting… but then its not a “rational” situation where differences will be settled politically. Iraqis are fighting for several different reasons… many of which aren’t legitimate… but fighting will determine who rules… who has more power. The next decades of power in Iraq are being determined right now in a dirty mix of politics, insurgency and death. - “Freedom” is important… but **HOW** you fight for “freedom” is as important if not more. I don’t beleive using military power is the best way to do it… but just because someone says they are fighting for “freedom” doesn’t mean its true or that it will work. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483/40 "2004-08-26T15:28:55Z")
> [@WoodCM](#): > > Comparing real life to bullshit movies. > This is a great mistake, and you should forget all the movies you have ever seen. I realise that this is an impossibility. Therefore this post is utterly futile, yet I am moved to say these useless words, perhaps in the hopeless thought that you might just be a little changed by these words. What price these few words compared to all the thousands of hours of fakery you have seen? I don’t think anyone is arguing it was a piece of cinematic genius. However, for all its flaws I think it can provide one interesting framework for looking at the Iraqi issue. I for one find it extremely hard to imagine what it’s like to be subject to a foreign force invading one’s country. Maybe I lack imagination; it’s something I regret. Thinking about it in terms of a movie like “Red Dawn” helps me to think about “if the shoe was on the other foot” in a clearer way. That’s true even if the overall situation (the purpose of the invasion in the movie, for example) doesn’t apply to Iraq. That’s true even if the movie sucked. I think it’s a thought-provoking question. If that makes me some lowbrow idiot, well, so be it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqi-insurgents-like-red-dawn/261483.md?page=3)