# Are the Iraqis really better off? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 22, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513 "2004-05-22T12:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/1 "2004-05-22T12:58:03Z")
The best place for this is the pit because it will probably start fight but I had to ask this. I keep seeing people posting writing, “at least we are better than Saddam.” I have a couple problems with that assumption. First off this is not exactly a high bar. I think even Jeffrey Dalmer and Charles Manson could probably get under this bar. I don’t want the litmus test for who represents my country abroad to be that they are better than Saddam Hussein. My tax dollars didn’t pay his Saddam. I want those representing my country and paid for by my tax dollars to somewhat reflect the values of the country they represent. I do not think that is too high a standard, and the people at Abu Ghraib missed it by a long shot even with only the pictures that have come out. Is the torture we have dealt worse than that of the people that kidnapped Berg. Not everything has come out but probably not. Again this is not a high bar. We know that the terrorists are monsters. Aren’t we supposed to be there to route out the monsters? I am pretty sure the way to do that is not to become slightly lesser monsters. Finally are the Iraqis better of. I am becoming less and less sure. [Hammurabi’s code](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/medieval/hammpre.htm) came out of this area just under 4000 years ago.When I teach my students about Hammurabis code we look at how bruttal the punnishments are but I explain that the importance was that it was written down. For the first time there was a systematic set of laws and everyone knew what it was supposed to be. This is what we took away from them. When people got tortured under Saddam usually knew what the punishment was for. Now it seems we grab anyone on the street and arrest them. Under the Saddam they mostly could count on water and gas and unless they said something against the regiem or lost a soccer game they pretty much could go on about their business. They have Guerilla warfare in many of their major cities and shrines and mosques that have been standing for hundreds of years are at risk. Is that the Democracy we want to import? I do think the world will eventually be better off without Saddam Hussein, and I am pretty sure that if we just leave now we will create a humanitarian crisis of enormous proportions. I don’t know the answer but I wish we would just quit digging. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/2 "2004-05-22T17:28:06Z")
They will be, eventually. Personally, I think the best bet us for the U.S. to import vast quantities of coca-cola, blue jeans, home video games and other elements of cultural imperialism, all to addict the younger Iraqi generation and make them too decadent to think about war. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/3 "2004-05-22T17:41:44Z")
They are already much better off than they were under Saddam. Wages are rising, imports are through the roof, construction is booming, people are buying satellite dishes at a phenomenal rate, electricity and safe water are now way past pre-war levels, the schools have been de-Baathified, and most importantly the people don’t have to live in perpetual fear of Saddam’s thugs. Assuming things continue to improve, in a few years Iraq will be unrecognizable compared to the cowed, poor nation it had been under Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/4 "2004-05-22T17:43:08Z")
I think the question will be impossible to answer for at least another couple of years. If we manage to set up an Iraqi Government successfully then the odds are that the country will eventually be better off. If the country slides into religious theocracy, however, the reverse could easily be true. ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/5 "2004-05-22T17:46:25Z")
Got cites for any of those claims, Sam? All I hear about are masses of dead civilians and [polls](http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/001091.html) showing that the populace, on the whole, can’t see much of a qualitative difference between us and the dictator we replaced. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/6 "2004-05-22T18:20:46Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > They are already much better off than they were under Saddam. Sam, I hate to question a man’s word, but I have seen news stories that directly contradict much of what you are saying. Do you have cites? > [@](#): > > Wages are rising, For American workers and Iraqi employees of American firms and the American regime, yes, wages are rising. They have to. You have to pay a guy a lot to risk getting shot at. Local businesses, from what I understand, are kind of screwed, for a variety of reasons having to do with supply, economic flux, and trying to do business in a war zone. But perhaps I am wrong. > [@](#): > > imports are through the roof, Well, yes. The country can’t support itself, or grow enough food, or much of anything right now. Imports are way up. The question should, perhaps, be “how are they paying for all this?” But perhaps I am wrong. > [@](#): > > construction is booming, Well, yes. Considering how much of the country is utterly FUBAR, construction is kind of necessary, unless you know how to set up housekeeping in a pile of rubble. I was under the impression that much of the construction was very much of the “mom and pop” variety, though – a family rebuilding their property, as opposed to professional construction firms rebuilding the infrastructure. But perhaps I am wrong. > [@](#): > > people are buying satellite dishes at a phenomenal rate, Really? News to me. I was under the impression the average Iraqi was as poor as a church mouse, particularly since their economy’s kind of screwed and the unemployment rate is reported to be quite insane – one of the contributing factors to the violence. Perhaps satellite dishes are just really, really cheap there. Or perhaps I am wrong. > [@](#): > > electricity and safe water are now way past pre-war levels, Everywhere? Or in American-controlled zones? Or perhaps in your bathroom? From what I hear, there are STILL places waiting for electricity and safe water, particularly where the rebels are pretty much in control. > [@](#): > > the schools have been de-Baathified, …and the police forces have been re-Baathified, according to CBS News, due to the shortage of qualified people who are willing to get shot at and bombed. But perhaps I am wrong. > [@](#): > > and most importantly the people don’t have to live in perpetual fear of Saddam’s thugs. Well, actually, considering that some of the rebels or insurgents or terrorists or whatever ARE former Saddam thugs, it seems to me that there’s still plenty of fear to go around. But when they get tired of fearing former Saddam thugs, they can fear American thugs, instead, watching Al-Jazeera’s continuing coverage of American atrocities in Iraq on their fine new TV sets, running on all that crackly new electricity, and with signals provided by shiny new satellite dishes. Or perhaps I am wrong. > [@](#): > > Assuming things continue to improve, in a few years Iraq will be unrecognizable compared to the cowed, poor nation it had been under Saddam. Define “improve,” bud. Am I wrong about all this stuff, or are you? A cite would be useful. Several cites would be even better. ---
**Author:** ![borax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/838e76/32.png) [@borax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borax)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/7 "2004-05-22T18:34:42Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > electricity and safe water are now way past pre-war levels, By and large the greatest thing the Iraqi’s have experienced has been the lifting of the sanctions. We wouldn’t LET them manufacture chlorine to sanitize their drinking water. That was not Sadaam’s doing. The same can probably be said for a lot of things you mentioned. Try some comparisons that go back to **pre-sanction** standards of living and I don’t think you will even come close. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > and most importantly the people don’t have to live in perpetual fear of Saddam’s thugs. Now they just live in fear of terrorists blowing them up, and american thugs shooting at them. Life isn’t definitely isn’t better for the nearly 10,000 innocent civilian Iraqis that have been killed by coalition forces. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/8 "2004-05-22T18:59:03Z")
You might be interested in some first-hand information from an Iraqi aid worker we have right here on the Straight Dope. He posted a thread in MPSIMS a while ago, but people seemed to be more interested in arguing about who’s right and who’s wrong than to ask a guy who’s really there and not pandering to the media or a political party, so it pretty much sank like a stone. [Ask the Aid Worker in Iraq](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=247567) Based on what he had to say, with a grain of salt applied to what we hear in the media, I’d say some Iraqis are better off now, some feel no change and some are much worse off, which is exactly as should be expected. We can’t be everywhere at once and things don’t just happen overnight. I agree with him, though, that I’d rather see the UN step in and take over the rebuilding. It feels like for every step forward we take, we take two steps back. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/9 "2004-05-22T19:21:40Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I agree with him, though, that I’d rather see the UN step in and take over the rebuilding. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the UN could, or even would, do a better job? For example, what UN troops will be sent to maintain security? The Germans? Belgians? Russians? Or maybe the crack troops of Security Council member Benin? :rolleyes: Under UN management, would the oil $ benefit the Iraqi people, or the French, with Kofi Annan taking a cut? In other words, what good has the UN done for anybody lately? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/10 "2004-05-22T19:29:44Z")
**milroyj** , do you ever bother to read links and really try to absorb the contents, or are you content to just fling a bunch of partisan bullshit out of your ass? > [@madmonk28](#): > > (bolding mine) > > I think Iraqis would be much more comfortable with a UN intervention than this US effort. If the US had built a coalition with UN support, I think **the resistance would get less support or passive compliance from the community**. He’s there, doing the work. Where is your comfy ass, huh? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/11 "2004-05-22T19:48:22Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree with him, though, that I’d rather see the UN step in and take over the rebuilding. Just like the Oil For Food program, eh? In any case, it’s hard to judge right now. On the one hand, there’s no longer state-sponsored terrorism, murder, or rape going on. An Iraqi couple can now get married without having to worry about Saddam Jr. raping and murdering the bride and groom. On the other hand, there’s probably an increase in rogue terrorism that are trying their goddamnedest to make the situation look worse than it really is. Of course, the US gets the blame for the leftover Baathists causing trouble. Because, y’know, the US is supposed to be omniscient… Frankly, I think it’s just silly to try to compare things NOW. Sure, that’s how politics works - if it’s not Good immediately and instantly, then dagnammit, SOMEBODY must’ve screwed up, right? - but, well, Bush has said repeatedly that things will take a long time to settle down. But we just forget that part… far more convenient to screech “He lied, he lied!” Another thing that makes it hard to judge is the simple nature of the media. All claims of liberal or conservative bias aside, the media wants to go where things are happening. Which means we probably get a disproportionate level of bad news, in the name of driving up ratings as CNN or MSNBC or FoxNews or whoever tries to snag up the larger piece of the Nielson Pie. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/12 "2004-05-22T20:00:18Z")
> [@SPOOFE](#): > > Just like the Oil For Food program, eh? Have you got any numbers on that? Was the graft a few hundred million, or does it rise above the 10% figure reported for the coalition’s reconstruction efforts? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/13 "2004-05-22T20:02:59Z")
**Shayna** quoting **madmonk28** : > [@](#): > > I think Iraqis would be much more comfortable with a UN intervention than this US effort. **If the US had built a coalition with UN support, I think the resistance would get less support or passive compliance from the community.** . But the US didn’t, so where does that leave us now? You think that turning over the rebuilding to the UN would be better, so offer some evidence that it would. What country or countries troops are going to maintain security? Who is going to provide the money? Who is going to provide the technical resources necessary? Facts please, not just vague speculation that “the UN would be better.” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/14 "2004-05-22T20:58:57Z")
Fuck off, **milroy** , I don’t have to provide you “facts.” The OP asked for an OPINION. It is my OPINION, based on my reading of the situation from the media and from a fellow poster who is there and can see first-hand what the reaction to U.S. troops is, that > [@](#): > > I think the UN should have a predominate role. I don’t think the UN is a magic bullet, but it would give the occupation a legitimacy that I think is lacking in the eyes of many Iraqis. So I think we need more troops, but from a variety of countries and all wearing UN blue. I think the bulk of these troops would necessarily come from the US. IMHO, this is why the insurgence attacked the UN, because they understood that as long as they can frame the conflict as between them and the US they can rely on some support from communities. You don’t like my OPINION, feel free to fuck right off. I don’t owe you any further explanation than that. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/15 "2004-05-22T21:21:17Z")
**Shayna** , quoting a person unknown: > [@](#): > > I think the UN should have a predominate role. I don’t think the UN is a magic bullet, but it would give the occupation a legitimacy that I think is lacking in the eyes of many Iraqis. So I think we need more troops, but from a variety of countries and all wearing UN blue. I think the bulk of these troops would necessarily come from the US. And therein lies the rub. Iraq should be turned over to UN control, but the bulk of the troops should necessarily come from the US? WTF? :dubious: What about the rest of the members of the Security Council? Why shouldn’t France and Russia step up to the plate? Or China, with a military force (males age 15-49 fit for military service) of 206 million? BTW, do you have any arguments to make on your own, or do you just parrot other posters? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/16 "2004-05-22T22:56:41Z")
At the moment the invasion looks like a botched land grab. Involving the U.N. would help dispel fears that this whole jolly excursion was merely intended to extablish U.S. hegemony in the Middle East. The U.N. has no standing army so all soldiers must come from member countries. The majority of troops should be U.S. troops because this whole fucking mess is Bush’s fault and he has no right to demand that the children of countries that were against the war (or, at least, not as enthusiastic as he was) should spill blood for his fucked up fools errand. At this point, frankly, he should be on his fucking knees _begging_ for U.N. involvement. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/17 "2004-05-23T02:15:36Z")
> [@griffen2](#): > > At the moment the invasion looks like a botched land grab. Involving the U.N. would help dispel fears that this whole jolly excursion was merely intended to extablish U.S. hegemony in the Middle East. The U.N. has no standing army so all soldiers must come from member countries. The majority of troops should be U.S. troops because this whole fucking mess is Bush’s fault and he has no right to demand that the children of countries that were against the war (or, at least, not as enthusiastic as he was) should spill blood for his fucked up fools errand. At this point, frankly, he should be on his fucking knees _begging_ for U.N. involvement. A botched land grap? Please pay attention. What on Earth would we want with that sandpit? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/18 "2004-05-23T02:22:57Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > A botched land grap? Please pay attention. What on Earth would we want with that sandpit? Um, oil? Robin ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/19 "2004-05-23T02:26:29Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Um, oil? > > Robin I know it won’t be forthcoming, but evidence? ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/20 "2004-05-23T02:55:46Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > A botched land grap? Please pay attention. What on Earth would we want with that sandpit? Oh, don’t be so fucking obtuse. You know damn well how important that “sandpit” is both materially and strategically. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513.md?page=2)