# Are the Iraqis really better off? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 22, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513 "2004-05-22T12:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/21 "2004-05-23T03:01:06Z")
> [@griffen2](#): > > Oh, don’t be so fucking obtuse. You know damn well how important that “sandpit” is both materially and strategically. Then give evidence that we are engaged in a “land-grab” for oil. ---
**Author:** ![griffen2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce7236/32.png) [@griffen2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffen2)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/22 "2004-05-23T03:15:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I know it won’t be forthcoming, but evidence? Evidence of what? That there’s plenty of Oil in Iraq or that that was the Bush administrations ulterior motive for the invasion? Assuming you’re asking for the latter, well, since I don’t have a direct psychic portal into George Bush’s head I cannot corroborate the assertion but… **Authors note: While, at this point I know milroyj has stopped reading, I will continue for the benefit of those in the peanut gallery as yet unswayed by his impressive rhetorical acumen**. …by a process of elimination we are left with oil as a likely motive. We know we didn’t invade for WMD’s because, well, there aren’t any (the odd decade year old Sarin shell not withstanding) We know we didn’t invade because of Saddam’s involvement in 9/11 because of [the complete paucity of evidence for such a suspicion.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3118262.stm) We know we didn’t invade because of Saddam’s links with Al-Qaida [for the same reason.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3909150/) We know we didn’t invade to save the poor, benighted Iraqi people because we [shat all over the Iraqi people for the twelve years prior to the war.](http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq17.html) Why on earth did we invade? Oil? Anyone? Yeah, I know, it’s unproveable but, frankly, at this stage asking for proof is akin to asking for a cite to a scientific report proving the existence of love or freedom as physical entities. We’re pretty sure they both exist but we’d be buggered if we tried to prove it scientifically. Anyway, even if Bush’s heart is pure as the driven snow and this whole jolly misadventure was conducted through entirely honourable motives, the international illegitimacy of this invasion still gives it the _appearance_ of a land grab, whether it is or not. Involving the U.N. would dispel this perception and consequently can only aid us. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/23 "2004-05-23T03:18:23Z")
You are the biggest asshole on this board. And that’s saying a lot. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/24 "2004-05-23T03:20:56Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > You are the biggest asshole on this board. > > And that’s saying a lot. How? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/25 "2004-05-23T08:01:49Z")
IIRC, the whole “the UN Food-For-Oil Program was a corrupted scheme to make France rich” allegation remains unproven. The _only_ evidence we’ve got for that whole bruhaha are the claims of one Mr. Chalibi, who last I saw was now being accused by the Bush Administration of being a deep-cover Iranian agent who was handing out false information. I don’t think anyone has actually _seen_ the documents that are supposed to “prove” the corruption, much less certified their authenticity. Do the UN-bashers _really_ want to hang their hats on this one? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/26 "2004-05-23T13:39:38Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > How? Practice. Practice. Practice. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/27 "2004-05-23T13:59:48Z")
Are the Americans any better off? Wasn’t that the justification for this war? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/28 "2004-05-23T14:13:20Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Then give evidence that we are engaged in a “land-grab” for oil. Oil, and strategic importance. Yet again I find myself having to post this due to the short memory or unwillingness of certain posters to take [url=]the PNAC’s plans into account. Please note the signatories: > [@](#): > > **January 26, 1998** > > …if Saddam does acquire the capability to deliver weapons of mass destruction, as he is almost certain to do if we continue along the present course, the safety of American troops in the region, of our friends and allies like Israel and the moderate Arab states, and **a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil** will all be put at hazard. As you have rightly declared, Mr. President, the security of the world in the first part of the 21st century will be determined largely by how we handle this threat. > Given the magnitude of the threat, the current policy, which depends for its success upon the steadfastness of our coalition partners and upon the cooperation of Saddam Hussein, is dangerously inadequate. The only acceptable strategy is one that eliminates the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction. In the near term, this means a willingness to undertake military action as diplomacy is clearly failing. In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy… > > Elliott Abrams, Richard L. Armitage, William J. Bennett > > Jeffrey Bergner, John Bolton, Paula Dobriansky > > Francis Fukuyama, Robert Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad > > William Kristol, Richard Perle, Peter W. Rodman > > Donald Rumsfeld, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber My emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/29 "2004-05-23T14:26:10Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > **Shayna** , quoting a person unknown: > > And therein lies the rub. Iraq should be turned over to UN control, but the bulk of the troops should necessarily come from the US? WTF? :dubious: > > What about the rest of the members of the Security Council? Why shouldn’t France and Russia step up to the plate? Or China, with a military force (males age 15-49 fit for military service) of 206 million? > > BTW, do you have any arguments to make on your own, or do you just parrot other posters? :smack: In my opininion it is fair that the U.S.A. provides the bulk of the troops because of a little known fact… FRANCE, CHINA AND RUSSIA DIDN’T ILEGALLY INVADE IRAK You break the dishes… Because of that you’ll provide most of the bullets and most of the dead. But U.N. intervention will give a legitimacy to the ocuppation.- ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/30 "2004-05-24T00:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > We wouldn’t LET them manufacture chlorine to sanitize their drinking water. I am a bit confused here. They live in a desert, if you drill a well you have a much better chance of hitting oil then water. Most of their water, as I understand it, comes from de-salination plants which work from either reverse osmosis or distilation, both of with remove any pathogens. Why would chlorine be needed at all, except for chemical weapons that is. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/31 "2004-05-24T01:12:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I am a bit confused here. They live in a desert, if you drill a well you have a much better chance of hitting oil then water. Most of their water, as I understand it, comes from de-salination plants which work from either reverse osmosis or distilation, both of with remove any pathogens. Why would chlorine be needed at all, except for chemical weapons that is. My guess is you have never looked at a map of Iraq. Ever heard of the Tigris river? Have any idea where it flows? The Euphrates? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/32 "2004-05-24T01:15:09Z")
Why are so many of the Bushco supporters so stupid? No need for chlorine…geez. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/33 "2004-05-24T01:19:06Z")
Here’s a map. Notice where the majority of the bid cities are? You reckon the should just drink the river water without chlorinating it? Idiot. [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/iraq-map\_base2.gif](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/images/iraq-map_base2.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/34 "2004-05-24T01:20:52Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Why are so many of the Bushco supporters so stupid? You don’t have the authority to call a rock stupid, much less another human being. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/35 "2004-05-24T01:25:42Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You don’t have the authority to call a rock stupid, much less another human being. I hate to break it to you…but rocks aren’t stupid. That is a human frailty. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/36 "2004-05-24T01:42:16Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Oil, and strategic importance. Yet again I find myself having to post this due to the short memory or unwillingness of certain posters to take [url=]the PNAC’s plans into account. Please note the signatories:My emphasis. \*\* … a significant portion of the world’s supply of oil\*\* A concern for securty of the **world’s** oil supply is not the same as a land grab. They didn’t imply anywhere that they wanted it for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/37 "2004-05-24T20:19:28Z")
Yes, that’s why the Bush Administration has bent over backwards to make sure [every nation has a fair and equal opportunity](http://news.nasdaq.com/news/newsStory.aspx?&cpath=20031209%5CACQDJON200312091645DOWJONESDJONLINE001355.htm) to get hold of that Iraq oil. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/38 "2004-05-24T20:55:32Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > construction is booming Poor turn of phrase, that. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/39 "2004-05-25T00:56:45Z")
> [@griffen2](#): > > Evidence of what? That there’s plenty of Oil in Iraq or that that was the Bush . > > We know we didn’t invade for WMD’s because, well, there aren’t any (the odd decade year old Sarin shell not withstanding) > > We know we didn’t invade because of Saddam’s involvement in 9/11 because of the complete paucity of evidence for such a suspicion. > > We know we didn’t invade because of Saddam’s links with Al-Qaida > > We know we didn’t invade to save the poor, benighted Iraqi people because we [shat all over the Iraqi people for the twelve years prior to the war. > > Why on earth did we invade? I will point out that it is completely possible for the WMD to have been the motive- and that GWB was just wrong. Same with the rest of your brilliant 20-20 hindsight analysis. Note that those Sanctions were **UN** sanction, not any unilateral US sanction. And- every single Iraqi who died from any Sanction can be layed directly on Saddams doorstep, not ours- he was the one who kept spending $$ on his army and palaces while they starved. Chlorine? Don’t make me laugh- Saddam wanted Chlorine to make chemical weapons, not purify the water. Proof? He didn’t try and buy any other water pruification systems. Ozone works fine also, but they didn’t use it either. Saddam wanted his people to suffer under the Sanctions so he could blame it on the USA. Yes, the Iraqi’s are better off. But as our OP mentioned- thank God Saddam set the bar so low that we could do almost anything and they’d STILL be better off. Note that I’d still like to get the UN in there- not becuase I think they’ll do all that much better of a job (less Cheny/halliburton corruption, more typical UN hapless bungling) but that the crap would fall on their heads then, not ours. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513/40 "2004-05-25T12:02:38Z")
Are Iraqis better off? Well, let’s judge the country by conditions for women there. Under Saddam, they had the right to vote. They could own property, go to school, get a divorce, sign a contract, etc. One of the people on the Iraq’s Most Wanted deck of playing cards is a woman, a bioweapons scientist, in charge of the weapons program. Obviously, a woman could go pretty far in Saddam’s Iraq. Of course, you have to counter that with the arrests and torture, as well as the effects of the economic sanctions. Now Saddam’s secular government is gone. The people want to vote for an Islamic government based on Sharia law, in which local imams will be able to impose their interpretations of law on the populace. While America will probably see to it that women retain their right to vote, there is pretty much fuck-all we can do to stop Islamic law from being voted in. Only one member of the 25-member governing council was a woman, and she was assassinated early on. She was not replaced with another woman. She was also not elected to be one of the 9-man rotating presidents. There is a lot of talk about how we can never let the minority Sunni have dominion over the majority Shiites again. As if a person of one sect can’t treat people of another sect fairly. But I digress. What gets me is that there is NO talk of how we can’t let minority men have dominion over majority women. WTF? Anyway, now Iraq is running rampant with insurgents, criminals, extremists, etc., and women are staying home in droves so as not to be assaulted in the streets. In newscasts, you may not see one woman in a crowd of 100 people. The ones you see are dressed in black abayas for their own protection. They did not have to wear those under Saddam’s regime. For those of use who care, it is a sad, sad event that women are going to come out of Bush’s invasion worse off than they were before. I wish the media would pay more attention to this issue, but hey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-iraqis-really-better-off/246513.md?page=3)