# Are the martial arts any better than boxing for self defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 15, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144 "2005-02-15T03:42:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/41 "2005-02-17T14:09:06Z")
Well, if an attacker will wait for me to put on my men, do, tare and kote and warm up with some suiburi, It’s ON!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/42 "2005-02-17T16:04:38Z")
> [@Doppleganger](#): > > I would think that various Special Forces around the world (and military units of other types too) would have done scientific type empirical research on which techniques tend transform the average (or way above average) soldier into the most efficient fighting machine. Not sure about Special Forces (maybe I will ask my nephew), but the US Army currently uses a program based mostly on Gracie jujitsu. But, as has been mentioned, engaging in unarmed combat in war is a sign that something has gone very wrong. The jujitsu training (Matt Larsen designed the system - he moderates at [www.e-budo.com](http://www.e-budo.com)) is designed not so much to equip the soldier for hand-to-hand without weapons, but to encourage fighting spirit. > [@Doppleganger](#): > > Let’s say we were to assign a self defense value of 50 based upon how long and effectively they could repel, disable, or discourage a never ending gauntlet of trained foes (perhaps 50 equals the average of one foe for sixty seconds to the average untrained person or even soldier. Now lets say that we were to apply martial arts, boxing ect training to this person for several years. At the end of that time what approach on average would give the best “trained” result do you think? Probably one of the stripped down versions already mentioned. It depends on the training, IMO. It would be possible to get the advantages of boxing in other martial arts. Kyokushinkai karate does a lot of conditioning and modified full-contact training. Their best guys have been known to beat muay thai fighters. Judo, jujitsu, and other submission grappling forms tend to have the best record in UFC-format events, when considering pure styles. But it depends on your goals. True self-defense training should prepare a person for combat under non-ideal conditions - multiple attackers, “no-gi” equivalent training, low-light conditions, poor footing, surprise attacks (especially this one) as well as situations where it would be inappropriate to kill your assailant. > [@Doppleganger](#): > > Is there _any_ technique that could transform someone into a “Kill Bill” type killing machine (minus the bogus five point exploding heart techniques and stuff) even with years of virtual round the clock training? No, there is no magic system. Six months training in a reasonable system of self-defense will prepare you for maybe 50% of the people who are likely to attack you. Five years training will bring you up to probably 80%. Being able to beat the rest depends a lot on natural talent - and luck. And nobody is invincible. > [@Doppleganger](#): > > If someone could somehow have the top twenty guys in hand to hand combat from the SAS, Mosad, Delta and SEALS show up for a hand to hand (and weapons) tournament would they be much (or any) better than the average black belt from a good dojo (or good boxer from a good gym)? In my opinion, yes, they would wipe the floor with the average black belt. This is mostly because of conditioning (which is roughly 60% of success in combat) and mental attitude (which is a good big chunk of the rest). > [@Doppleganger](#): > > Is there a Lu Kang or David Carridine hanging out somewhere in Tibet or China who could blow all of these guys away (figureatively speaking). I doubt it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/43 "2005-02-17T16:40:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not sure about Special Forces (maybe I will ask my nephew), but the US Army currently uses a program based mostly on Gracie jujitsu. Ugh, hate Gracie jujitsu. Can’t deny it’s effectiveness, but I am glad Sakuraba beat so many of the Gracie clan. > [@Shodan](#): > > Kyokushinkai karate does a lot of conditioning and modified full-contact training. Their best guys have been known to beat muay thai fighters. I think it’s important to remember that some of the ‘modern’ fighting systems were developed by street fighters. Kyokushinkai was developed by a Korean street fighter living in Japan, and made into a movie called “Fighter in the Wind”. Hapkido was developed by another Korean living in Japan who got into a lot of scraps. Jeet Kune Do was developed after Bruce Lee was challenged to a fight to stop him from teaching non-Chinese. He was very disappointed in how difficult it was to defeat his opponent as well as how little real training his previous style gave him. > [@Doppelganger](#): > > Is there a Lu Kang or David Carridine hanging out somewhere in Tibet or China who could blow all of these guys away (figureatively speaking). In the movie **Iron and Silk** , there is the wushu teacher by the name of [Qingfu Pan](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0659027/bio). He liked to hit an iron board over and over, and was supposed to have strong fists. This leads me to ask, if martial artist would do well training like boxers (jump rope, heavy bag, road work). Would boxers gain any benefit hitting wood or makiwara with bare fists? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/44 "2005-02-18T17:42:48Z")
> [@archmichael](#): > > I think it’s important to remember that some of the ‘modern’ fighting systems were developed by street fighters. Kyokushinkai was developed by a Korean street fighter living in Japan, and made into a movie called “Fighter in the Wind”. I don’t think kyokushinkai and its offshoots are particularly effective because of different techniques - they just train differently. They train full-contact (no hand strikes to the head or neck, no kicks to the groin) and they are demons for conditioning. But you are correct that many modern arts are attempts to re-introduce realism into arts that have become increasingly stylized. Judo did it in their famous 1888 tournament with traditional Japanese jujutsu, Fairbairn did it with his manual in WWII, Gracie JJ did it in the UFC. > [@archmichael](#): > > In the movie **Iron and Silk** , there is the wushu teacher by the name of [Qingfu Pan](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0659027/bio). He liked to hit an iron board over and over, and was supposed to have strong fists. Yes, I saw that. He had hugely calcified knuckles on his right hand. There exists considerable controversy over whether hand conditioning of this sort helps all that much. You can certainly create skin callouses, and kill the nerves so that it hurts less to punch, but I am not sure how much you will reduce the incidence of hand fracture in a real fight. And it leads to all kinds of unpleasant conditions that will limit the ability to use the hands for anything else. Traumatic arthritis is not a fun condition, even for tenth dans. > [@archmichael](#): > > This leads me to ask, if martial artist would do well training like boxers (jump rope, heavy bag, road work). Would boxers gain any benefit hitting wood or makiwara with bare fists? I don’t see why - they never box bare-knuckle. When they did (back in the London Prize Ring days) they did much more wrestling and attrition than they did knock-out punching. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/45 "2005-02-18T20:14:58Z")
I’m a 5th Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo. However, I do crosstrain with joint locks, pressure points and groundfighting as well. Any training style that does not teach you to control your environment to your advantage is a waste of time and will more than likely get you hurt. Your own self-confidence and self-control will keep you out of 99% of aggressive situations, and will help you come out on top in that last 1%. But it’s not an overnight thing and that’s where people go astray. Someone with 6 months training is in horrible shape compared to someone with 6 years training; both of them are in horrible shape compared to me with 18 years training, and I sure as hell would not want to go up against the folks that teach me. It is a lifetime committment and it requires a lifetime of dedication. ---
**Author:** ![Nahk\_Ila\_Dihahs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nahk\_Ila\_Dihahs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nahk_Ila_Dihahs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/46 "2005-02-20T10:26:48Z")
I used to study Tae Kwon Do, and used to be quite good at it. I don’t think its effective for street self defence. It seems to focus too much on style and correctness. Also, for people brought up on a staple diet of Chinese kung fu movies, its easy to imagine that a peron with kung fu skills can easily leave a dozen or so thugs writhing on the floor in agony. (I blame Bruce Lee for that. 50 guys couldn’t give him as much a scratch. That honour was reserved only to the Big Boss). To me, fighting in the various martial arts styles in movies is just a masculine form of dance (just watch **Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon** or **Hero**. The fight sequences are visual poetry) Kicking technique from Thai kick boxing, punching technique from boxing and holds/chokes from Judo would be quite effective, IMHO. Just my $0.02, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/47 "2005-02-20T23:46:47Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Well, if an attacker will wait for me to put on my men, do, tare and kote and warm up with some suiburi, It’s ON!! 🙂 Do you take your shinai everywhere you go? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/48 "2005-02-21T00:05:34Z")
It’s funny, but every time I run into one of these threads asian martial arts dominate the discussion. No one has yet mentioned western martial arts, except for modern sport boxing, how about historical european martial arts? Several modern police and military groups have actually began to study these methods of unarmed and armed combat both for actual application in their field, and for the same reasons jujitsu is practiced by some other army units, pure confidence building and encouragment of the ‘warrior spirit’. ---
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/49 "2005-02-21T03:16:20Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > No one has yet mentioned western martial arts, except for modern sport boxing, how about historical european martial arts? Such as? Is it likely that the OP is going to find a Glima school near his home? Should we consider Greco-Roman wrestling as a good fit? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/50 "2005-02-21T03:20:46Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > Such as? Medieval and Rensissance systems? There is a growing community of Western Martial Artists working from German, Spanish, Italian and english martial art systems from the late medieval and renaissanceperiod. As I mentioned, some of these systems is even seeing use by police and army personnel. It is likely that such a group could be found near the OP’s location. ---
**Author:** ![DrLoveGun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@DrLoveGun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrLoveGun)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144/51 "2005-02-21T05:34:29Z")
> [@Doppleganger](#): > > I just got finished watching Kill Bill I and II and they left me pondering whether or not if I invested many years in the martial arts if I would be any more capable of defending myself than an equivalent amount of time spent at Boxing, or “street fighting” Has anyone ever conducted any sort of serious research to determine if martial art convey a superior hand to hand ability over less formal forms of fighting assuming an equivalent conditioning level? If so which systems are considered to be superior? Krav Maga. Its the martial arts equivelent of Aussie Rules Football. You are taught to exploit obvious weaknesses and use whatever you need to win and survive. No wonder, when attacked the Jews win. This is their fighting style, and it wins. This is why the 6 Day war only took six days. On the seventh day they rested. They are just as good as Og. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-martial-arts-any-better-than-boxing-for-self-defense/290144.md?page=2)