Are the martial arts any better than boxing for self defense?

The other major drawback of boxing is that you generally are not going to be wearing gloves and hand wraps in a street fight. The harder you have learned to punch, the greater the likelihood of breaking a hand on his head.

Self-defense training is related to but not identical with martial arts training, as it is similar to but not identical with boxing. If you want to study self-defense, your best bet might be one of the modern composite arts like combato or defendu. If you can find it in your area. Failing that, jujitsu or something based on the Fairbairn-Sykes methods would be useful. Again, these are harder to locate than your average strip-mall dojo.

YMMV.

Regards,
Shodan

It’s a reasonable plan, assuming you have the mental and physical wherewithal to cope with boxing.

Then again, those lighter chaps probably weren’t trying to move your nads into your throat via your stomach, as they might be in a street fight…

Not like I’m an expert on street fighting or anything, but I would tend to agree. All things being equal, if you are strong, fast and agile, you really don’t need to have the prettiest technique out there.

As for grappling, that’s great if there’s one guy and you put him in a pin, but I don’t think you want to be rolling around on the ground while his pals smack you upside the head with pool cues.

I’d say it’s more pick something you like/enjoy/are fit for to start with, and then absorb other skills to that. For some (especially if you have upper body strength) boxing is as good as any. If you have a weak upper body, then something more like ju-jitsu or judo is a good start. If you like the kicking and funky stances, kenpo, tae-kwan do, or gung-fu is your way.

Understand, though, that most of these things are taught primarily as a sport in this country (even if they are advertised as “self-defense”) and that a couple of years in a dojo or boxing ring isn’t going to make you equal to a guy whose been fighting on the street since he could walk.

And, as others have noted, avoid the really fancy stuff in a real fight. High spinning kicks and elaborate katas look fine on the tournement floor, but will get you in the quick hurt in the barroom. If you have to fight, keep it low, quick, and dirty. Kicks below the waist, punches to the solar plexus, groin, or floating ribs, maintain your balance, and move, move, move. Don’t be adverse to pulling some Jackie Chan stuff and using your environment as a weapon, too. (Just don’t think that you’re going to fight as well as Chan’s coreographed moves.)

And learn to take (and roll) a punch. If you get into more than a couple of fights, it’s going to happen to you, and you’d best be able to absorb it as easily as possible rather that stand there like a deer in the headlights with blood sopping out of your nose and a Nighty-Night Bunny Rabbit riding the rails straight into your face.

Stranger

The very best method of self-defense is to always be aware of your situation, and look like you are. Not being an easy target = not looking like an easy target = awareness = the best self-defense possible.

Some martial arts, especially some traditional styles of karate, are completely and totally useless in terms of SD. Deep stances and kata aren’t nessecarily going to hurt you (better to know how to throw a punch than not), but they’re not particularly helpful. Some slightly less traditional arts are a little better. A lot of TKD is sport-oriented. You’re wearing pads, but you’re still going to get whacked around if you take your training seriously. If you’ve got a lot of experience in a controlled environment where someone’s attacking you, you’re less likely to freak out when the same happens in an uncontrolled environment.

Various arts have their own strengths: cross-training is definitely best. TKD has taught me how to move in a fight (any dojang where they don’t put a lot of emphasis on footwork isn’t very good), and supplemental training there taught me some ‘dirty’ tricks. Someone mentioned kicking to the knee: very effective. So’s stomping on the arch of someone’s foot, punching to the neck, etc. I’ve recently picked up aikido: it’s giving me a basis for how to get an opponent on the ground.

I’m not any sort of expert, but my opinion is this: your best bet is to not get in a fight. Obviously. If it’s unavoidable, though, you want to get out of the fight. the best way to do this is to incapacitate your opponent: use pepper spray, punch them in the throat, kick them in the balls. Or, get them on the ground while you’re still on your feet, and run.

Revco raised a good point about size. I’m tiny, and it’s just a disadvantage to have less mass than your opponent. Doesn’t mean if you’re small you’re going to get your ass kicked, it just means it’s more likely.

For someone who actually knows what the hell they’re talking about, in a big way, I very, very strongly recommend reading some of the articles here.

The way most guys weight train is a liability in a fight. If you’ve got a huge upper body and no leg development, you’re top heavy and unstable, which means you’re going down quick. If you train with slow movements, there’s little carryover to fast movements, which means you’re not going to be hitting all that well.

On the other hand, anyone who can deadlift 600 lbs. and clean 300 lbs. is no one you want to fuck with.

I like Krav Manga, personally (though I’ve never formally studied it.) Be aware, though, that once you start studying one of these styles intensively, you become reflexive. When your sweetie throws a pretend punch or comes up behind you and starts tickling you, you’re response is often…uh…a bad one.

Uh, are you talking Fairbairn-Sykes edged weapon combat here? 'Cause if so, I have to disagree with that. I’ve done a bit of edged weapon training, and it is not for casual use. As my instructor repeatedly stated, “In a real knife fight, one guy goes to the ER, the other to the morgue.” You can’t justify pulling a knife on an unarmed person (usually), and against another weapon I’d choose something that gives me more distance, like a baton or (preferably) a gun. Knives are great for quietly removing sentries, The Guns of Navarone-style, but for face to face combat? Nah.

YMMV.

Stranger

Oh, Marc “Animal” MacYoung! I have to second that wholeheartedly. The guy knows his stuff and he writes in a very entertaining way. I didn’t know he was still around after Loompanics stopped publishing his books.

Cheap Shots is great, and Knives, Knife Fighting and Related Hassles is an excellent, real-world look at the methods, drawbacks, and reprecussions of edged weapon combat that you won’t get from an SAS manual.

Stranger

Right now I study Kajukembo, Muay Thai/kickboxing, boxing, and grappling; in the past I’ve also studied Jeet Kune Do and Kali.

A huge advantage of the boxer I haven’t seen mentioned yet (although I might have missed it): conditioning. Boxers train to go the distance.

The main advantage boxers have, though, along with other sport oriented martial arts like judo and grappling, is that boxers will fight like they train. One of the most important contributions Jigaro Kano gave in the development of Judo was emphasis on full-force execution of non-lethal moves in randori, or sparring. Learning to apply technique against a fully resisting opponent is crucial, since your dim mak death-touch isn’t going to do you a bit of good if you have no skills in applying it. The conditioning that boxing or kickboxing demands coupled with the feedback and muscle memory demanded when learning to hit someone who doesn’t want to be hit, or grapple someone who doesn’t want to be grappled, are crucial skills.

Still, though, I don’t rely on boxing or kickboxing for the full picture. As mentioned, the cranium is extremely hard and punching someone in it repeatedly may hurt your hand worse than your opponenet’s head. You’re not attempting to maim the opponenet, just score points or ring his bell for him. Any time you place a rule on a martial sport to protect the competitors (or keep it interesting for the spectators), you run the risk of taking away realism. I was watching a match the other day where a boxer kept getting into a clinch with one arm and turning his back on his opponent; good tactics in boxing, but absolute suicide in a streetfight. So as important as the skills are that I feel like boxing and kickboxing instills, I still study Kajukembo as well to keep myself grounded in the realities of self defense. Some of the founders and early black belts in Kajukembo were former flyweight and welterweight boxing champions in Hawaii who were drawn by the system’s effectiveness and the supposedly brutal training.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents, yours may vary.

No, I am not specifically recommending knives for self-defense, although in a real fight any weapon is better than none. Weapon fighting is a whole 'nother argument.

Fairbairn also wrote a book “Kill or Be Killed” on hand-to-hand combat. I used to have a link to it online. It was the first of the “boiled down to basics” books on Asian combat methods.

There are several groups who use these methods as a basis for hand-to-hand combat training. They have an unfortunate tendency to veer off into chest-thumping machismo and other kinds of foolishness, but their focus on the basics of street fighting is more useful than the more esoteric Asian forms. IMO.

This is some of what I meant. I don’t specifically endorse this site, but it is the sort of approach that tends to be successful in street fighting.

I have often thought that a good judo or jujitsu guy with six months of Fairbairn training would be pretty tough to beat.

Regards,
Shodan

I would think that various Special Forces around the world (and military units of other types too) would have done scientific type empirical research on which techniques tend transform the average (or way above average) soldier into the most efficient fighting machine. Let’s say we were to assign a self defense value of 50 based upon how long and effectively they could repel, disable, or discourage a never ending gauntlet of trained foes (perhaps 50 equals the average of one foe for sixty seconds to the average untrained person or even soldier. Now lets say that we were to apply martial arts, boxing ect training to this person for several years. At the end of that time what approach on average would give the best “trained” result do you think? Would it make any difference if you could train someone from a very young age? Is there any technique that could transform someone into a “Kill Bill” type killing machine (minus the bogus five point exploding heart techniques and stuff) even with years of virtual round the clock training? If someone could somehow have the top twenty guys in hand to hand combat from the SAS, Mosad, Delta and SEALS show up for a hand to hand (and weapons) tournament would they be much (or any) better than the average black belt from a good dojo (or good boxer from a good gym)? Is there a Lu Kang or David Carridine hanging out somewhere in Tibet or China who could blow all of these guys away (figureatively speaking).

Cops do a lot more H-T-H than any soldier.

So, study cops, instead.

I’m not too sure of **Bosda’s ** comment. I think there is an ex-SEAL at my dojo (not to mention at least one cop) who may disagree. He also fails to take into account something interesting: a cop who engages in HTH is, AFAIK, trying to subdue someone, not kill them. A SF soldier who is engaged in HTH on a battlefield is royally screwed because he’s lost his grenades, gun, knife and buddies. He is going to disable/kill as quickly as possible. So, while your statement may be true, it really doesn’t help any.

Yep. You can read the field manuals online for at least some of them. I had one, can’t recall if it was Marines or Army, but it was apparently widely criticized for being too sporty. It also mimicked my own dojo’s style surprisingly closely.

Essentially, they taught the jab, cross, hook and uppercut for punches. For grappling, it was one or two takedowns, the guard & rearguard and various chokes. Knifefighting was briefly covered and bayonet/club fighting had angles that any Kali practitioner would recognize.

As for your studies, Krav Maga is just that. Tim Larkin, a man who teaches SEALs and others who has made what I think of as a modern Dim Mak system: precisely targeted blows to various points on the body to get certain effects. He claims that how you deliver a blow is largely irrelevant, as long as it gets to the proper place with an adequate level of force. It looks interesting, but the $700 price tag is a bit beyond my means.

FWIW, he’s also the guy that came up with the “four punches cancelling each other out” that I started a GQ thread on.

Huh?

I believe that to be the case, although it doesn’t appear to be a particularly large gap.

Muay Thai fighters often train from the age of 8 or so in what is likely the most rigorous training around (at least that I’ve seen). They are some of the most brutal (IMO) fighters in their own sport. Of course, their careers tend to be pretty short and there are a lot of non-Thai champions who presumably don’t train for nearly so long. That may just be in the higher weight classes, as Thais don’t seem to be putting out many heavweights.

Again, the soldiers fight to kill and the MA guys typically don’t. There’s a big difference.

You mean, is there anyone that comes out for their first fight and completely destroys everyone in their path? Check the history of the UFC for several stories like this.

I took tae kwon do. We learned forms, tourney fighting (high kicks and straight punches for points), defense fighting (elbows, knees, throat grabs, locks, throws, sweeps, dislocations). We also did quite a bit of sparring (no contact, light contact and full contact). We were instructed as to what is for protection and what is for competition. I think most instructors do teach all of these, although maybe at different ranking levels. Contrary to popular opinion, you don’t squat into a deep stance and try to block everything - you will get owned. We were taught to move, and block and counter. If you are moving or dodging and block, you increase the chances of either not getting hit, or at least reducing the damage. We were also taught to “hit like you mean it” and to mix it up in combinations. Our tests for promotion included taking on multiple attackers, so you better be moving. I was not a great student, being naturally clumsy and got knocked on my tail a lot. My very best was only average compared to the more talented students. But, the one time I needed it on the street (actually on the bus) the other guy couldn’t even touch me, and one good side kick to the torso picked him up and threw him backwards. I was more shocked than he was.

Boxing is great, but it is “designed” more for a one on one fight. With martial arts, if your teacher does his job, you have a lot more “options” and tactics.

That’s not what military or police forces are interested in. They’re interested in being good enough to handle the situations they need to handle, not being the best ever.

Good point! I forgot to mention the conditioning. The joke I hear at the boxing gym is that martial artists need that beer gut to keep their belt from going to their head! :wink:

Yes, there are MANY MA’s who are damn fit. But that is generally because they do extra work outside of class.

In Thai boxing and boxing it is non-stop conditioning during training. I was doing 250 push-ups and sit-ups in the beginners class! I NEVER sweated as much during my MA years. I think there really is something to be said about the average fitness of MA’s vs. boxers. There is one over-weight person at the boxing gym now. One out of over 50. Jump ropes, jogging, bag work, sit-ups, push-ups, medicine balls, etc etc. The training is really intense.

I need to get back into it more regularly…I only go sporadically now and it sucks.

-Tcat

Like other people have said, boxing is limited. It’s really, really good at the type of fighting it’s tailored to: hitting people in the head with special gear. The gloves are heavy, which means that fighting without gloves is like running with a backpack; it’s ludicrously easy to do stuff without all that weight holding you back. Boxers are conditioned well and few real fights last longer than one boxing round. Boxers have killer combinations. If you let them get in close, they will hit, and hit, and hit, and you are not going to like it one bit. They hit hard. If they land even one punch, you’re pretty screwed because it will be followed by several more so fast that you’re probably not going to block them. Even if you hit a boxer, they’ll often shrug it off unless it was a really disabling shot to a vulnerable area because, like other have said, boxers get used to getting hit and dealing with it.

Drawbacks are that there’s no ref, there’s no bell at three minutes to give you a break, and you can’t clinch to rest. Also, as someone mentioned earlier, while with taping and gloves you can hit really, really hard, if you hit that hard without the tape and padding, you’re virtually guaranteed to break something. What I’ve heard happens to boxers in fights is that they hit one guy, abso*^¢#inglutely destroy that guy’s face…and break most of the bones in the hitting hand. They then get the crap kicked out of them by the guy’s buddies because they can’t use one of their hands anymore. Sure, they took the first guy out with no problem, but that didn’t help them win the fight.

Boxing, like other stylized and specialized sport fighting, limits target areas for safety. Boxers hit to the head almost exclusively, which can really hurt, but the head is armored pretty well and is instinctively protected well by most people. A real drawback to the boxer’s defensive posture is that it’s really ineffective without big padded gloves. There are gaps in the defense without gloves and it limits your field of view more than most other fighting defensive postures. If you get hit in your blocking hands, sometimes you actually whack yourself in the face, which is not as bad as taking the full force of the punch, but not real pleasant either.

In real fights you do not want to hit someone in the face with your fist very often, if at all. An open-hand push, palm strike, or even slap to the face are sometimes more effective – and always easier on your hands – than fists are. There are a lot better places to hit than the face, and most martial arts will teach you those. By learning good targets to hit you also learn what places are vulnerable to attack.

In general, cross-training is good. It covers up gaps in whatever other system you’re learning. You learn a different way of thinking for both attack and defense. I’ve met people who use one art to enhance another, like a guy who learned Tae Kwon Do to enhance his attacks for his main love, Aikido. He improved his understanding of both arts by training in different ways and shored up the weaknesses in each.

One problem with cross-training is that sometimes people don’t get into the art far enough to get all the mechanics and subtleties that make a big difference later on. Some of the really good Aikido or Judo guys can do a couple of tiny adjustments that turn a lock that less experienced guys can make only somewhat effective and painful into something excruciating, or make a throw seem effortless (to both observers and the poor sap who’s his training partner) when a beginner would struggle to not screw it up so completely that it doesn’t work at all.

Something to keep in mind if you cross train is that sometimes you have to stay with the mindset of the art you’re doing at the time. Being too soft in a striking art makes some of the techniques worthless, being too hard in a throwing art turns some of the really devastating locks and throws into total crap. After some experience with either, you can start to see where typical or traditional methods don’t work so well, but you really need some experience before you can make that call.

Some people were talking earlier about armed forces and police training. It’s rudimentary for most of the rank and file. One of the reasons some police end up beating a subject into submission and subsequently getting police brutality charges thrown at them is because they spend far more instruction in firearms than in submission, disarming, and restraint with a baton or unarmed. They also don’t have much required re-training time. Those skills need regular use or they deteriorate.

Armed forces spend minimal time training in unarmed combat because, realistically, unarmed-, bayonet-, or knife-combat in war is vanishingly rare. Special forces units get much more instruction, but even they will often supplement with civilian martial arts training in their off time. We had a few police officers and military guys who trained with us in my first dojo. Both police and military said the basic training was a joke compared to pretty much any quality martial arts training. The main advantage military guys had over civilians was the physical conditioning and the psychological edge of thinking they were bad boys. Police had more experience in defusing confrontations and in recognizing when things were about to get serious.

Just to check:

Krav Manga - that’s where you make like an Israeli soldier, and the other guy gets smooshed Japanese-cartoon style, yes? :cool:

:slight_smile:

I believe it’s such a huge advantage because most people involved in a street fight do not train to go the distance. I’ve been involved in exactly one street fight in my entire life so I won’t pretend to be an expert. I had wrestled for many years and most of my physical training revolved around increasing my endurance so I wouldn’t get tired in the ring.

I’ll keep it short. Four guys tried to liberate my wallet and me being young and cocky decided I wasn’t going to let it happen. I don’t know how much time passed but I moved around a lot, took a few hits, and got in a few hits of my own. They became winded but thanks to my phsyical shape I was able to go on longer then they were. I didn’t kick their asses but the fight ended when I took a few steps back, lowered my fists, and walked away.

Another advantage of boxing is that you can find other boxers no matter where you go. Also, boxing equipment isn’t all that expensive so you can set up a miniature gym at home with a speed bag, punching bag, and other accessories and get to work.

I don’t believe boxers are any more prone to breaking their hands then anyone else. Even with the gloves on I hurt my hands/wrist several times on the heavy bag before I learned how to make a proper fist. I imagine there is always a chance for a broken finger or wrist but I do not believe a boxer is at any more risk then any other martial artist who punches someone.

Marc

I look at martial arts as more of a hobby/sport, and if it can help you defend yourself, then all the better. However, if you’re dead serious about self defense, you’ll carry a handgun in .38 caliber or larger. A person who is well trained in the defensive use of a handgun is an order of magnitude more effective than a black belt.