# Are the men of Afghanistan simply cowards or is it something else? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 9, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110 "2021-07-09T20:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/41 "2021-07-10T19:09:18Z")
> [@FrenchDunadan](#): > > Only the Ghaznevides and Moghols unified them: guess why? they were themselves Afghans and used bloody tactics to exterminate any who dissent and push mayhem to the neighbors. Sorry for the pedantry, but they weren’t actually - they were heavily Persianized Turkic foreigners. But the Ghaznavids based themselves out of Afghanistan and the Mughals eventually retreated there as a rump of the Timurid empire before re-expanding into India. So in both cases Afghanistan was the center of their operations (for a fairly brief period of time in the case of the Mughals). Though there were a few “local” dynasties that emerged out of or were loosely based out of what is today Afghanistan from various origins (Saffarids, Samandids, Ghurids), these were pretty much all very heavily classically Persianate. I believe the first identifiable Pashtun dynasties didn’t emerge as rulers of a greater Afghanistan until the early 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/42 "2021-07-10T19:41:39Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I keep hearing how the US needs to grant asylum to all the folks who assisted the US war effort like translators and whatnot, and I generally agree, but fighting age men shouldn’t easily gain asylum. If your country sucks fight to fix your country. Don’t run and watch it burn from the outside. The problem is that if enough people just lay down their arms then the folks who assisted us, like translators, WILL be summarily executed. The Taliban has already declared an intention to do this. If we just leave those translators there they are most likely doomed. I think that’s a piss-poor return for them working for us, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/43 "2021-07-10T19:43:04Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > You’re assuming these soldiers actually think their wives and daughters will have miserable lives under the Taliban. But if a substantial portion of them don’t believe that because either they loosely agree with the Taliban’s version of Pashtunwali or because they don’t disagree enough to stake their lives on it, you’re in a pickle. > [@Monty](#): > > Maybe part of it is an awareness that they cannot protect their wives and daughters while they’re doing their military duties away from their homes. They very well may consider that a miserable life is better than no life. Which is absolutely something I can imagine in their minds: _“Why should I expose the women and children of MY family and village to deprivation if I’m killed, and even to **their own death** in reprisal for my fighting, just so some Kabulites’ daughters that mean nothing to me can live **their** life their way?”_ Plus I believe the ANA is made up of many who joined for a paycheck, or in support of a particular patron, not out of some commitment to a _cause_. The moment the patron looks weak… goodbye! > [@Alessan](#): > > I think the United States is just really, really bad at training foreign troops. What we seem to be bad at is preparing these client regimes – not just the troops, **the whole state apparatus** – to stand _without us around to directly back them up_. To exist without the guarantee that A10s/F18s or a MLRS barrage can be called in as soon as you see heads poking over the ridge. Everyone says “we should not get involved in nation-building”, which is true of us as occupiers, but the reality is that if _someone_ doesn’t do some actual “nation building”, the troops of that client state will have nothing to stand for. And as **Odesio** points out that includes things like institutional culture. > [@Broomstick](#): > > The problem is that if enough people just lay down their arms then the folks who assisted us, like translators, WILL be summarily executed. The Taliban has already declared an intention to do this. If we just leave those translators there they are most likely doomed. > > I think that’s a piss-poor return for them working for us, don’t you? That’s another. We have an outstanding record of saying, _“now that you are not of use to us any more, goodbye, sucks 2 B U”_. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/44 "2021-07-10T19:57:10Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I (was) and American serviceman over there at one point and I’m not (at all) advocating for us staying (because it’s pointless) but what does it say about the rest of the world when we knowingly abandon all of those women and children to the whims of their spineless husbands/fathers? That’s pretty much been history world-wide - women and children are the property of men, subject to the whims of the men in charge of them. I’m not saying it’s OK - I find it pretty repugnant - but that’s a historical norm pretty much everywhere and a present norm in quite a few places. How much American blood are you willing to spill to even attempt to change that? The only thing we could realistically do is offer entry to our country to those willing to take it - but the men are the gatekeepers. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Wasn’t this a huge issue in Iraq too, the Iraqi military would just desert their posts when ISIS came. To be fair, the Iraqi military often deserted/surrendered when the US showed up (or a drone did, or foreign journalists) in 1990. There’s a pattern here. I suspect that while the Iraqis may be willing to risk their lives for their homes they are less inclined to do so for a dictators in a distant city or for people from halfway around the world. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > The problem is that if enough people just lay down their arms then the folks who assisted us, like translators, WILL be summarily executed. The Taliban has already declared an intention to do this. If we just leave those translators there they are most likely doomed. > > > > > I think that’s a piss-poor return for them working for us, don’t you? > > That’s another. We have an outstanding record of saying, _“now that you are not of use to us any more, goodbye, sucks 2 B U”_ . We did bring in a lot of the Hmong… after a delay… and there were all sorts of problems once they got here due to large cultural differences. And that was in an era more open to immigration than we currently have. Which, to my mind, are not valid excuses for not offering asylum to Afghani translators and others who worked closely with the US over there. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/45 "2021-07-10T20:06:53Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > What possible justification could there be for laying down like this if it’s not cowardice? The entire whole-ass US military presence in Afghanistan just got finished slinking out of the country with its tail between its legs, after not accomplishing jack shit for anybody. Why do you expect a handful of riflemen to do what the most powerful military in the world couldn’t do? We should pay these people pensions forever for the inconvenience of signing on for our bullshit crusade and getting nothing for it but a target painted on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/46 "2021-07-10T20:19:37Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > I (was) and American serviceman over there at one point and I’m not (at all) advocating for us staying (because it’s pointless) but what does it say about the rest of the world when we knowingly abandon all of those women and children to the whims of their spineless husbands/fathers? What does it say about us if we could do what we did to and in Afghanistan, then leave it as we did, and then somehow turn around and heap blame and shame on the people—even just the men—we left to hold the bag after our departure? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/47 "2021-07-10T20:45:23Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think US leaders had very unrealistic expectations when it came to making soldiers out of Afghan people especially given the very short time frame they were working with. Even training them to use their rifles was an exercise in frustration as they preferred the spray & pray method of firefighting versus disciplined fire. But the biggest problem was the level of corruption that started at the top and went all the way down to the lowest level. You just can’t fix that kind of thing in a few short years. Having talked to a number of people who were in Afghanistan specifically to train Afghans in various skills including construction, engine maintenance, general infantry fighting and conventional operations, et cetera, one of the big problems (beyond the corruptions and provincialism) was just the fundamental lack of literacy among the population. Most Afghans have little formal education and so trying to teach any complex skill set starts with remedial training that is time consuming and frustrating. The notion that Afghans as a group will embrace and defend a fledgling democratic regime is patently absurd when their only experience with governance is at the tribal level and they don’t even have a basic understanding or appreciation for democracy. It is worth noting that when we entered Afghanistan, the mission was never about nation-building (unlike Iraq where that was the explicit if badly misguided focus); it was about eradicating Al-Queda training bases and getting Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenants, even though by the time the Coalition forces were in Afghanistan en masse bin Laden was almost certainly already operating out of the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. There has never been a clear mission or set of goals for Afghanistan besides taming the Taliban, and constantly shifting mission directives (destroy poppy fields, no protect poppy fields, liberate villages, no allow local warlords to govern villages, et cetera) meant that no record of progress or success could ever be made except for building roads and bridges that would eventually be mined, build schools and hospitals that were targets for suicide bombers, attack and take valleys and foothills only to abandon them a few weeks later; in short, a point for point repeat of every error made in the Viet Nam War (except conscription) down to the basic fact that we had no particular reason to be there at all. In fact, the CIA and US military had multiple opportunities to take out Osama bin Laden prior to the 11 September 2001 attacks and neglected to do so because of ‘bad optics’, as if killing a known terrorist financier would have somehow looked worse than being engaged in an 18 year long war in which nothing whatsoever was accomplished at the cost of trillions of dollars. > [@Velocity](#): > > The ideal solution IMHO: Withdraw all U.S. troops from Afghanistan, except for a few hundred at one base, with drones, and then just keep droning the Taliban 24/7 nonstop to make their life miserable. They can do whatever they want to Afghanistan, but we’ll just Hellfire them once or twice a day to never let them get comfortable. Brilliant plan; let’s just terrorize people endlessly with ineffectual drone strikes that will mostly kill noncombatants and create more generations of hopeless young men willing to engage in suicide bombing because how could that ever blowback on us? We’re the US of A, fuck yeah! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/48 "2021-07-10T21:14:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Brilliant plan; let’s just terrorize people endlessly with ineffectual drone strikes that will mostly kill noncombatants and create more generations of hopeless young men willing to engage in suicide bombing because how could that ever blowback on us? We’re the US of A, fuck yeah! I understand the point of the sarcasm but sometimes - yes. Terrorizing people with drone strikes that will create hopeless more extremists may be the best thing in psychological warfare. It will undermine the Taliban’s image of strength when the militants hear day-in, day-out messages about “so-and-so- in our ranks got droned yesterday”. It takes 20-30 years to make a militant, but only 20-30 seconds to take him out. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/49 "2021-07-10T21:35:12Z")
I see. So first we radicalize 'em, then we kill 'em. There’s an effective long-term strategy. /s ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/50 "2021-07-10T21:40:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I understand the point of the sarcasm but sometimes - yes. Terrorizing people with drone strikes that will create hopeless more extremists may be the best thing in psychological warfare. It will undermine the Taliban’s image of strength when the militants hear day-in, day-out messages about “so-and-so- in our ranks got droned yesterday”. It takes 20-30 years to make a militant, but only 20-30 seconds to take him out. Well, that is a geopolitical analysis with the depth of a South Park episode: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/U1mlCPMYtPk/maxresdefault.jpg "AMERICA F\*#K YEAH! MUSIC VIDEO - Team America World Police THEME SONG") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mlCPMYtPk) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/51 "2021-07-10T21:46:08Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > > [@Velocity](#): > > > > It takes 20-30 years to make a militant, but only 20-30 seconds to take him out. > > Well, that is a geopolitical analysis with the depth of a South Park episode: Plus he’s got it backwards. It take 20-30 years to make a functioning member of civil society, but only 20-30 seconds to make him a militant. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/52 "2021-07-10T22:39:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s a pattern here. I suspect that while the Iraqis may be willing to risk their lives for their homes they are less inclined to do so for a dictators in a distant city or for people from halfway around the world. But they weren’t, thats the issue. They abandoned their post when a numerically small group of ISIS fighters showed up. If the Iraqis who abandoned their posts are sunni I guess I can understand it, but if they were shi’ite they were allowing a group of people with a violent hostility towards them take over. It would be like a heavily armed group of black soldiers taking off and running away when a small number of Klansmen showed up. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/53 "2021-07-11T10:35:49Z")
I have the feeling that quite a few of those Iraqis who were defending Mosul were _NOT_ from Mosul. I imagine that enough of them said “fuck this noise, I am not defending this place that I have nothing to do with! If I have to defend some place, I am going to fight for **my** village!”. Tribal loyalty to their local village and place of origin, not to a nebulous greater idea of the “nation” of Iraq, is what motivates them. And if enough people go away, the rest will follow, because they don’t want to be the last idiots left holding the bag in front of a nasty enemy that _will_ want to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/54 "2021-07-11T13:51:51Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I see. > > So first we radicalize 'em, then we kill 'em. > > There’s an effective long-term strategy. /s It’s actually rather elegant. You’re not allowed to kill them until _after_ they’re radicalized. So… abracadabra… Perpetual Motion Machine. Autoerotic Ouroboros Hours of Ours. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/55 "2021-07-11T14:42:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The problem is that if enough people just lay down their arms then the folks who assisted us, like translators, WILL be summarily executed. The Taliban has already declared an intention to do this. If we just leave those translators there they are most likely doomed. Nobody likes collaborators…news at eleven. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/56 "2021-07-11T14:47:59Z")
There’s actually some precedent for what you’ve described. We bombed the shit out of Cambodia and Laos, and it actually persuaded people the extremist regimes like the Khmer Rouge - responsible for killing close to 25% of Cambodia’s population - were better than the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/57 "2021-07-11T14:53:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > They did a pretty solid job of it during the Russian occupation. Almost too good, one can argue. Write this 5000 times. _The Mujahideen are not the Taliban. The Mujahideen are not the Taliban_ ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/58 "2021-07-11T15:01:09Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > I have the feeling that quite a few of those Iraqis who were defending Mosul were _NOT_ from Mosul. I imagine that enough of them said “fuck this noise, I am not defending this place that I have nothing to do with! If I have to defend some place, I am going to fight for **my** village! Not really. They were basically convinced that their position was untenable, not helped by hysterical rumours of tens of thousands of ISIS fighters and a few adverse reverses… It was very similar to the French and British running away in May 1940 after Guderians breakthrough at Sedan (the second part is something that Anglo media likes to downplay), which also seems to be whats happening now in Afghanistan, at least from what I can glean from Afghan news sources. Garrisons are retreating since the feel wrongly or rightly they cannot hold out and need to withdraw to a “more defendable position”. But, a disorganised retreat leads to panic and panic leads to route. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/59 "2021-07-11T17:41:13Z")
Apparently even the beneficiaries of that collaboration. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/60 "2021-07-11T17:59:05Z")
Not unusual. Its hard to respect people who join up with outsiders, even when you use them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110.md?page=4)