# Are the men of Afghanistan simply cowards or is it something else? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 9, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110 "2021-07-09T20:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/61 "2021-07-11T18:07:46Z")
I have found it to be the case that there are a disturbingly large number of people who have that attitude, yes. I personally don’t find it all that hard to respect someone who helped us out when we asked them to, but YMMV. What I think would be hard is getting others to help us out after we have shown that we disrespect those who have in the past. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/62 "2021-07-11T18:15:37Z")
nm      ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/63 "2021-07-11T19:47:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Write this 5000 times. > _The Mujahideen are not the Taliban. The Mujahideen are not the Taliban_ Maybe you read this 5000 times first, yeah?: > The mujahideen were at first poorly equipped, and they remained decentralized throughout the war. Holding most of the countryside, they used mainly animal transport against Soviet motor transport. The quality of their arms and combat organization gradually improved, however, as a result of experience and the large quantity of arms and other war matériel shipped to the rebels, via Pakistan, by the United States and other countries. The [Haqqani network](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Haqqani-network), coordinated by a prominent commander of the mujahideen, became a key instrument of this foreign assistance. The mujahideen also received aid from sympathetic Muslims throughout the world, and an indeterminate number of Muslim volunteers—popularly termed “Afghan-Arabs,” regardless of their ethnicity—traveled from all parts of the world to join their war effort. These foreign volunteers coordinated among themselves and with Muslims in their homelands through a network of their own, known as [al-Qaeda](https://www.britannica.com/topic/al-Qaeda) (Arabic: _al-Qāʿidah_ , “the Base”). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/64 "2021-07-11T21:03:28Z")
I don’t see the word “Taliban” anywhere in your quote. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/65 "2021-07-11T21:06:13Z")
Because I wasn’t talking about Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/66 "2021-07-11T21:06:32Z")
Geez, it’s hot here! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/67 "2021-07-11T21:47:04Z")
Still not the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/68 "2021-07-11T21:48:48Z")
Oh. FFS. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/69 "2021-07-11T21:53:49Z")
Original point being, there’s a world of difference between “training” (and arming and funding) a highly decentralized group of rebels against an ongoing occupation, and what we’ve tried to do in training pro-US forces in Afghanistan in the context of a civil war. Alessan’s point is probably still valid. I wouldn’t go so far as to say we absolutely suck at training soldiers; I think the problem we have is a bit more complicated than that, and as with all things American foreign policy, tends to suck and fail bigly at the policy and strategy level. We have a fucking awful track record of identifying what it is that other countries or factions within countries want, what their motives and agendas are, and so forth. We can’t see past our own initial wants and needs. Tl/dr: America’s hegemony tends to think more like the French than the British when it comes to managing our protectorates. And shit, we don’t even leave behind quality coffee or bread. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/70 "2021-07-12T06:35:38Z")
But you were replying to someone who was, which is _kind of the point_. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/71 "2021-07-12T06:45:42Z")
The US made a fundamental mistake right at the beginning. The Taliban were mostly defeated in 2001. They then approached the US to negotiate and be part of the peace process and the new government. The US refused to negotiate with them or include them. They arrogantly laughed them off and thought they could ignore a rag-tag defeated enemy. They didn’t realize what deep roots the Taliban have in Afghan culture and society. They thought they could ignore Afghanistan’s history, culture, and social order, just dismiss it at a stroke, and remake Afghanistan according to American values. It was a case of extreme hubris. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/72 "2021-07-12T08:53:54Z")
I agree: the U.S. convinced itself that it was “freeing” Afghanistan, instead of conquering it. They refused to understand that the Taliban wasn’t a foreign invader, but the Afghanis’ own people and, like it or not, probably their preferred form of government. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/73 "2021-07-12T12:29:26Z")
Was I? Let’s recap: I responded to Alessan, in a tongue-in-cheek manner, to his comment about America’s (in)ability to train foreign troops, saying they are not entirely bad at it. Meaning, US support and training of Mujahideen fighters during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. I hope it’s clear he wasn’t talking about the Taliban, yeah? At least one person got the reference. I could have continued to torture the bit by reminding people that the US also trained some of their “best” pilots. But I thought that might be too on the nose. So I didn’t. Someone else then came in to explain to me, in the most pedantic way possible, that the _Mujahideen are not the Taliban_. So I responded in kind and explained who I was specifically talking about. And then you and another person came in to explain to me that I _still_ hadn’t addressed the Taliban question. Well, yeah. No shit. …and now I suppose I’ll regret doing so again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/74 "2021-07-12T12:38:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Was I Yes. You quoted it and everything. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/75 "2021-07-12T12:51:08Z")
I can set my watch by the predictability of these exchanges. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/76 "2021-07-12T13:58:41Z")
Also, quite evidently the troops of the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, etc., and before them the Mujaheddin and before those who resisted British India and keep going backwards for centuries, have a fighting record. So it’s not a matter of “the men of Afghanistan”. It’s a matter of _these_ members of the ANA, and to a great degree of the ANA’s nature as a creature of the US-client state and thus the very low level of cohesion and commitment it has. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/77 "2021-07-12T14:06:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Someone else then came in to explain to me, in the most pedantic way possible, that the _Mujahideen are not the Taliban_ . So I responded in kind and explained who I was specifically talking about. And then you and another person came in to explain to me that I _still_ hadn’t addressed the Taliban question. Well, yeah. No shit. It’s not pedantic. It’s a fucking fact. The Taliban came from people too young to have fought the Soviets, the hint is in the name, Taliban=Students. The fact they were **not** the Mujahideen was rather a big selling point for them and it takes extreme ignorance to not know that and persist in false and snide comments. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/78 "2021-07-12T14:33:15Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It’s not pedantic. It’s a fucking fact. It’s as though you haven’t read anything that @QuickSilver actually said. They never said, or even implied, at any stage that the Mujahideen were the Taliban. They are fully and completely aware that the Mujahideen are not the Taliban. They were talking about the Mujahideen, _not_ the Taliban. I don’t even know how you got this idea into your head. Can we please end this silly sniping? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/79 "2021-07-12T14:37:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > It’s not pedantic. It’s a fucking fact. The Taliban came from people too young to have fought the Soviets, the hint is in the name, Taliban=Students. > The fact they were **not** the Mujahideen was rather a big selling point for them and it takes extreme ignorance to not know that and persist in false and snide comments. Who trained the Taliban? Who taught them how to fight? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/80 "2021-07-12T14:42:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Who trained the Taliban? Who taught them how to fight? The Pakistanis. > **[Taliban](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Role_of_the_Pakistani_military)** > > The Taliban (/ˈtælɪbæn, ˈtɑːlɪbɑːn/; Pashto: طَالِبَانْ, romanized: ṭālibān, lit. 'students'), which also refers to itself by its state name, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan,\[a\] is a militant organization in Afghanistan with an ideology comprising elements of Pashtun nationalism and the Deobandi current of Islamic fundamentalism. It ruled approximately three-quarters of the country from 1996 to 2001, before being overthrown following the American invasion. It recaptur The Taliban emerged i... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110.md?page=5)