# Are the men of Afghanistan simply cowards or is it something else? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 9, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110 "2021-07-09T20:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/81 "2021-07-12T15:00:38Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > But if a substantial portion of them don’t believe that because either they loosely agree with the Taliban’s version of Pashtunwali or because they don’t disagree enough to stake their lives on it, you’re in a pickle. That’s more than likely the vast majority of the problem. It’s not like fighting-age Afghans on the government side are these enlightened womens-lib types. They’re probably conservative, male-chauvinist, and probably generally ignorant. The Afghan government backed by the US was probably the best deal they had going, not necessarily some sort of ideological crusade that they’re fighting for. And they’re not professional soldiers in the Western sense either, meaning that they’re not fighting because it’s their profession and because they’ve had intensive indoctrination in what that means, unlike most Western armies. Put another way, the US Army’s soldiers fight _because_ they’re soldiers and part of the US Army, and at a remove, because they’re Americans, or for freedom, or whatever else. The Afghan soldiers are more along the lines of mercenaries; they’re fighting because they’re being paid, not because they have this deep ideological commitment to the Afghan government, or because they believe in gender equality or whatever. So when the US pulls out and the Afghan government is shown to be seriously weak, their soldiers likely just go back to their own tribal grouping, or even to the Taliban if that seems to be the best deal for them. It’s really no skin off their noses how that shakes out, unless the Taliban is summarily executing anyone associated with the Afghan government; that might put their backs to the wall and actually make them fight. It’s definitely not a question of personal bravery; it’s been shown for centuries that the warriors of Afghanistan (whatever tribe they may be from) have plenty of that. It’s more about WHY they fight. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/82 "2021-07-12T15:07:15Z")
Interesting. I did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/83 "2021-07-12T15:26:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Write this 5000 times. > _The Mujahideen are not the Taliban. The Mujahideen are not the Taliban_ Why? He didn’t assert they are. > [@MrDibble](#): > > But you were replying to someone who was, which is _kind of the point_ . **Alessan** posted about the U.S. training Afghanis to fight the Taliban. **Quicksilver** replied that the U.S. did a good job training Afghanis to fight the Soviets. **AK84** then points out that the Mujahideen are not the Taliban. So? **Quicksilver** did not assert the U.S. trained the Taliban. > [@AK84](#): > > It’s not pedantic. It’s a fucking fact. The Taliban came from people too young to have fought the Soviets, the hint is in the name, Taliban=Students. > The fact they were **not** the Mujahideen was rather a big selling point for them and it takes extreme ignorance to not know that and persist in false and snide comments. It’s a fact completely irrelevant to **Quicksilver** ’s remark, as he did not assert they are the same. He basically said “Back then, the Afghanis fighting the Soviets were trained and equipped by the U.S. and did a successful job of repelling the invaders. Now, the Afghanis fighting the Taliban were trained and equipped by the U.S. but are not doing well fighting other Afghanis when losing the support.” “Mujahideen are not the Taliban.” The Taliban are not the Viet Cong. The Soviets aren’t the United States. Iran and Iraq aren’t the same country even though though they only differ by one letter. Cuba isn’t a democracy. A banana isn’t an orange. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/84 "2021-07-12T15:37:54Z")
I owe you & **GreenWyvern** a pint. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/85 "2021-07-12T16:08:17Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > They are fully and completely aware that the Mujahideen are not the Taliban. They were talking about the Mujahideen, _not_ the Taliban. And **AK84** ’s point, at least as I understood it, was that this thread is about the Taliban, not the Mujaheddin, and commentary on the Mujaheddin, their training by America or their history, is irrelevant to the modern case. To which Quicksilver replied with a _non sequitur_ cite talking about how the Mujaheddin were related to _al-Qaeda_, and not mentioning the Taliban at all - i.e. _more_ irrelevancy. Which I then commented on. And then apparently Quicksilver’s pocketwatch burst a spring or something. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/86 "2021-07-12T17:55:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s definitely not a question of personal bravery; it’s been shown for centuries that the warriors of Afghanistan (whatever tribe they may be from) have plenty of that. It’s more about WHY they fight. I think this really is the answer. Humans have spent millennia asking “Why we fight”. It often gets coupled with the idea of the difference between a soldier and a warrior. I think it’s fair to call the men of Afghanistan warriors and not soldiers. It doesn’t mean they’re not brave or that they won’t fight. But that they don’t answer the question of “Why I fight” in the same way that Cubsfan would and that’s it such a difference in view that the two groups might never understand the other. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/87 "2021-07-12T18:48:23Z")
Good article. Invaders and outside interests as the cause of problems in Afghanistan, including religious fundamentalism. > **[History shows us that outsiders can never bring peace to Afghanistan | Tamim...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/12/afghanistan-us-british-withdrawal-biden)** > > The US and British were exacerbating the problem they were trying to solve, says Afghan author Tamim Ansary > The great irony of the western project to bring democracy and social progress to Afghanistan is this: Afghans have a powerful progressive current of their own. It’s Islamic, not secular, but it is progressive. > > In the six decades after the country gained independence from the British and before it was invaded by the Soviets, Afghanistan was governed by Afghans. > > During that time, what did that Afghan government achieve? It liberated Afghan women from the previously obligatory burqa. It promulgated a constitution. It created a parliament with real legislative power. It set up elections. It built schools for girls nationwide. It pushed for coeducation. It opened women’s access to a college education at Kabul University and it opened public employment opportunities for them in professions such as medicine and law. > > It is staggering to look back at that era. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/88 "2021-07-14T06:39:41Z")
[quote=“MrDibble, post:85, topic:946110”] And **AK84** ’s point, at least as I understood it, was that this thread is about the Taliban, not the Mujaheddin, and commentary on the Mujaheddin, their training by America or their history, is irrelevant to the modern case. [/quote] In a thread where the people of Afghanistan have been compared to the Russians, North Koreans, Iraqis under Saddam, the Vietnamese, Iraqis in Mosul, and even the Cambodians and Laosians, out is hardly off topic to compare the people of Afghanistan to other people of Afghanistan. > [@MrDibble](#): > > To which Quicksilver replied with a _non sequitur_ cite talking about how the Mujaheddin were related to _al-Qaeda_ , and not mentioning the Taliban at all - i.e. _more_ irrelevancy. No, **AK84** ’s post was the non-sequitor. **Alessan** made a post that the U.S. is bad at training foreign forces. He didn’t say the Taliban or ANA or Afghanis. His comment is a generic blanket statement. **Quicksilver** replied with a case where the U.S. did a great job training a foreign force. It also had the advantage of being about Afghanis, and an ironic twist ending. He did not mention Taliban because the comment he replied to was not about the Taliban. Then **AK84** interjects his comment that had no bearing on the statements made. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/89 "2021-07-14T12:05:30Z")
Forget it **Irishman**. It’s LA-LA-LA-LA…town. ---
**Author:** ![Soosie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Soosie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soosie)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/90 "2021-08-27T19:22:45Z")
That title makes no sense since the Taliban are also made up of Afghan men so you meant Afghan Army cowards? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/91 "2021-08-27T21:16:02Z")
The afghan army was trained to use close air support. That’s how our forces are trained. Air Superiority is essential and you need special pilots for close air support. Your hitting targets a 1000 yards from your men. The afghan army depended on US Air support. Afghan planes and vehicles were maintained by US contractors. That all went away. We trained the army the wrong way. We should have taught them to fight in small independent groups. Like the Taliban fights. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/92 "2021-08-28T14:23:07Z")
This is woefully uninformed opinion. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/93 "2021-08-28T14:50:01Z")
My opinion is based on several op Ed pieces from former officers that served in Afghanistan. General Petraeus has mentioned the dependence on military contractors. IMHO no one has the exact answer. There’s too many policy failures that occurred during a 20 year period. Military historians will be studying and analyzing Afghanistan for a long time. General Ben Hodges reflections on his service and policy mistakes are very interesting. > **[How we as a nation — and I as a military officer — failed in Afghanistan](https://nypost.com/2021/08/24/how-we-as-a-nation-and-i-as-a-military-officer-failed-in-afghanistan/)** > > Gen. Ben Hodges, former commanding general of the United States Army Europe, reflects on the mistakes made at developing the Afghan military and how the country should move forward following a huma… > [@](#): > > We built an army that was similar to Western armies, which are designed to employ overwhelming firepower and enjoy endless logistics and exquisite intelligence assets. When these were removed, the Afghan security forces were not able to fight as we’d expected. We should have designed them to be more in harmony with Afghan culture and society, along tribal and family lines, like the Taliban. The corruption at the [highest levels of government](https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/afghan-president-ashraf-ghani-is-now-in-united-arab-emirates/) and leadership gave those Afghan soldiers and police in many cases little reason to want to fight. > > As director of operations in Regional Command-South, Kandahar, from August 2009 to November 2010, I saw many brave, competent Afghan officers and units. I believed it was possible that they could eventually stand on their own. I left Kandahar at the end of 2010 very optimistic about the future. But I failed to believe what I was seeing with my own eyes — that the most effective Afghan units were actually those that looked a lot like the Taliban. Those were the units led by US Green Berets, which moved with speed in pickup trucks, wore no boots or helmets, yet knew the people and the culture. I was part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/94 "2021-08-28T14:59:14Z")
There were undoubtedly many competent ANA units. But there was far too much of this: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/S84bntUzY1U/hqdefault.jpg "Inside Afghanistan Fighting Alongside Stoned Afghan Soldiers") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S84bntUzY1U) …and this… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ja5Q75hf6QI/maxresdefault.jpg "This Is What Winning Looks Like (Full Length)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI) ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/95 "2021-08-28T15:29:39Z")
History has shown again and again that people would rather be ruled by “their own kind”, regardless of how brutal, then by outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/96 "2021-08-28T15:39:52Z")
So the US saw all that happening, and their reaction was that everything was going just great, and they didn’t need to change anything they were doing… for 10 years? 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/97 "2021-08-28T15:46:11Z")
We probably trained them the right way, technically speaking. I mean, fighting on the ground is fighting on the ground, so I retract my comment that “they weren’t trained to fight a ground war” – they were. But the more accurate way of describing it is that we badly miscalculated how prepared they were to actually wage a ground war with the Taliban, which is probably attributable to a multitude of reasons. We took the training wheels off, and they immediately crashed the bike. Air support is particularly important for America’s military efforts because Americans don’t have the stomach for high casualty counts. The Afghan forces did a lot more dying than we did, but everyone has limits to how much they can endure. And when we pulled air support, and I think more importantly when we negotiated mano-a-mano with the Taliban and left the government out, that was probably the moment when they decided, this shit ain’t worth it anymore. Of course the rampant corruption didn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/98 "2021-08-28T15:49:05Z")
Is it your position that the US is at once incompetent and all powerful? Because that’s the two arguments you seem to be offering. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/99 "2021-08-28T16:49:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Is it your position that the US is at once incompetent and all powerful? Did I ever say or imply all-powerful? 😀 Incompetent, I give you …or perhaps it depends how you define competence. The mid-ranking US officers were extremely competent at doing the best for their careers, by lying and sucking up to the generals, and signing off on whatever made them look good. The US generals were extremely competent at funnelling shitloads of money to the contractors who were providing all that unnecessary and unhelpful hi-tech support to the ANA – and who will no doubt ensure that those generals have extremely lucrative sinecure positions at their companies when they retire from the military. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110/100 "2021-08-28T18:17:32Z")
I take it you’ll have no part of watching the videos I linked because you’re not interested in any narrative other than the one you keep repeating. That’s a shame. But as you say, you’re just here sharing your humble opinion. Tah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-men-of-afghanistan-simply-cowards-or-is-it-something-else/946110.md?page=6)