# Are the Morman's killed in Mexico related to Mitt Romney? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178 "2019-11-08T16:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2019, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/21 "2019-11-09T07:55:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They’re not members of the LDS church. This doesn’t mean they don’t consider themselves LDS. If I am remembering correctly Alma Dayer senior and his family felt that they were the ones who were the true Mormons as they were keeping true to Joseph Smith’s decree of polygamy. Probable source as my memory can’t remember which book: Scott Anderson’s book The Four O’Clock Murders which is about the LeBaron cult. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/22 "2019-11-09T12:58:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [George Romney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney) was Governor of Michigan and sometime presidential candidate. He was born in Mexico to US citizen parents, making him a US citizen by birth. His grandparents were polygamous Mormons but his parents were monogamous. > > From Wiki: That’s where I got great great grandfather in the OP. Mitt’s polygamous connection is actually a great grandfather. I counted back one too many generations. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/23 "2019-11-09T14:12:46Z")
The BBC has a good background story on the Mormon fundamentalists migration to Mexico. The Romney family isn’t mentioned but the video I linked earlier reported they were part of that migration. > **[Mexico ambush: How a US Mormon family ended up dead](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50339377)** > > Nine people, all American citizens, were killed by gunmen in an ambush this week. > [@](#): > > The Mormon fundamentalists started to move to Mexico from around 1890 when they split with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Primarily, they parted ways over the question of polygamy, which the breakaway Mormon groups continued to practise while the mainstream church, based in Utah, prohibited to comply with US law. > > Polygamy was illegal in Mexico too - but there was an understanding that the authorities would “look the other way about their marriage practices”, explains Dr Cristina Rosetti, a scholar of Mormon fundamentalism based in Salt Lake City. > > “The families who went there were not ‘fringe families’ or ‘bad Mormons’,” she says. “These were leaders of the church; they weren’t peripheral people. Big names went down there.” > > Among them was the LeBarón group’s patriarch, Alma “Dayer” LeBarón, who established Colonia LeBarón in Chihuahua in the 1920s. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/24 "2019-11-09T14:47:04Z")
Yes, but Alma’s family was not part of the core settlement as they were part of the second wave, and thus - there is apparently some disagreement by other residents as to how much - were outsiders. In fairness, some said they weren’t, they were loners who weren’t interested in socializing and mingling, but others said they were because they arrived in that second wave and so were looked down on and there was some ostracising and in their town were the only ones from that second wave so had no fellow second wave families to bond with. I don’t remember offhand, but I don’t believe any of Alma and his first wife’s sons stayed with the LDS; they all formed their own churches. Again: source Scott Anderson. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/25 "2019-11-09T15:20:25Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > This doesn’t mean they don’t consider themselves LDS. If I am remembering correctly Alma Dayer senior and his family felt that they were the ones who were the true Mormons as they were keeping true to Joseph Smith’s decree of polygamy. > > Probable source as my memory can’t remember which book: Scott Anderson’s book The Four O’Clock Murders which is about the LeBaron cult. They might consider themselves “Latter-Day Saints” or “true Mormons”, but they’re clearly not “members of the LDS church”, and I’m confident they understand that point even if some Dopers don’t. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/26 "2019-11-09T15:22:28Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > … I don’t remember offhand, but I don’t believe any of Alma and his first wife’s sons stayed with the LDS; they all formed their own churches. > > Again: source Scott Anderson. If he were ever a member of the LDS church, he would have been excommunicated if it were known that he was practicing polygamy. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/27 "2019-11-10T04:17:13Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > [This claims not LeBarons, or at least not _those_ LeBarons](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/11/08/commentary-no-mormon/). Note that this was written by Lindsay Hansen Park, an amateur historian who had a year-long podcast on Mormon polygamy. [https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/](https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/) Her position is that the fundamentalists are actually closer to the church doctrine at the time of Joseph Smith than the current LDS church. It was interesting for me because two of my great-grandparents where born into polygamous families. > [@wguy123](#): > > “They do have a common ancestor in Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr., a Mormon who was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1924 for continuing to practice polygamy, which the Utah Saints officially disavowed in 1890.” > > The apple isn’t falling very far from that tree. That’s an unfair accusation. While I don’t like polygamy, not all polygamous people are members of crazy sects. As far as being part of a large polygamous family, my g-g-grandfather had a bunch of wives and 26 some odd kids. After I had been dating a girlfriend in college for a while, we discovered we were distant cousins from that family group, which also includes the founder of a locally famous business. Anyone from Utah would know the name. The polygamous members who remain in Mexico tend to be mostly independent fundamentalists (e.g. those who practice polygamy) rather than belonging to one of the organized groups. There are independent fundamentalists in Utah, but more tend to be part of one of the various groups. As far as the date of 1890, that’s not really accurate. That’s the date of the press release issued by the prophet at the time, personally advising members to discontinue the practice. It wasn’t for another couple of decades before they got serious about stopping it, although the doctrine has never been renounced, and people will practice polygamy in heaven. For example, when a wife dies, the husband can be “sealed” or married in the temple and the second wife will also be married to him for all eternality. The LDS church isn’t really open about this, which is one reason it’s been so hard to wipe out. > [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > are these Mormans in Mexico currently practicing polygamy? There are both Mormons there who practice polygamy and those who have stopped the practice. My understanding is that the Romney family are among those who do not. > [@Colibri](#): > > I assume the Mormon community in Mexico is not very large, and Romney’s father was born in Mexico. The idea that there could be a link is not far-fetched. This is an interesting question and actually one which I wouldn’t be surprised either way. Normally, there is a large divide between mainstream LDS members and fundamentalists. As noted by another poster, those who practice polygamy with two current wives will be excommunicated and a local leader and excommunicate people for simply associating with polygamous people. However, as it is a small community so I wouldn’t be surprised is there weren’t some sort of connection somewhere. > [@kitap](#): > > This doesn’t mean they don’t consider themselves LDS. If I am remembering correctly Alma Dayer senior and his family felt that they were the ones who were the true Mormons as they were keeping true to Joseph Smith’s decree of polygamy. There are several terms here which should be clarified. “Mormons” refers to people who adherents to a faith related to the religious movement which was founded by Joseph Smith and others in the late 1820s through the early 1840s. The largest sect within Mormonism is the LDS church based in Utah. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Note the hyphen and lower case “d.” One branch (or more?) doesn’t have the hyphen, another has the hyphen and an upper case “D,” The LDS church has gone back and forth several times on claiming “Mormon” for itself then rejecting it. Currently it’s not supposed to be used by members to refer to themselves. They haven’t had any luck getting the media to follow along. The largest divide came after Smith was gunned down in a jail by a mob. The Community of Christ (formally the Reformed LDS Church) was formed by people who rejected polygamy and there were a bunch of other branches formed. After polygamy was discontinued a number of people and groups have broken off, some remaining independent and others forming organized movements. A few have retained “LDS” as part of their name, but most haven’t. People who break off tend to regard themselves as having the true priesthood and authority of Jesus Christ and use another name. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/28 "2019-11-11T15:56:31Z")
Do the Mexican cartels have specific beefs against the LDS communities in Mexico? Or was this just a wrong place/wrong time sort of situation? Does the Mexican government just look the other way at the alleged polygamy going on in those communities? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/29 "2019-11-11T17:36:16Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Do the Mexican cartels have specific beefs against the LDS communities in Mexico? Or was this just a wrong place/wrong time sort of situation? … Ten years ago a member of the community was kidnapped and two more were murdered. The assumption is that “the Mexican cartels” were involved in that. Since then though, I don’t think they’ve had much of an ongoing feud. There’s some speculation that the vehicles the women and children were in might have been mistaken for a rival cartel. I don’t think the answer is really known yet though, and it may never be. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-mormans-killed-in-mexico-related-to-mitt-romney/843178/30 "2019-11-11T17:40:06Z")
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