# Are the only "successful" marriages the ones that end in death? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 8, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618 "2010-08-08T20:17:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/1 "2010-08-08T20:17:02Z")
I was married for 11 years. My marriage ended when my husband died. A friend of a friend was married for 32 years. Their marriage ended when her husband left her for another woman. But up to and through 11 years, their relationship would have looked “successful.” And there’s nothing that proves that if my husband had lived we wouldn’t have gotten a divorce. So, what’s the definition of a successful marriage? Is it only identifiable after it’s over, and only “successful” if someone died (as a necessary but not sufficient condition)? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/2 "2010-08-08T20:32:00Z")
Technically…yes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/3 "2010-08-08T20:32:07Z")
A successful marriage is one where both parties keep their promise. “As long as we both shall live”. So yes, you can only tell that the promise was kept when one party dies. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/4 "2010-08-08T21:00:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A successful marriage is one where both parties keep their promise. “As long as we both shall live”. > > So yes, you can only tell that the promise was kept when one party dies. > > Regards, > Shodan Not everyone promises to stay together as long as they both shall live. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/5 "2010-08-08T21:07:44Z")
I made no promise about ‘as long as we both shall live.’ Do bear in mind that not everybody (even in the US) marries with a Christian ceremony. That said, I think that a successful marriage is one that continues to makes the people in it happy, and doesn’t make the people around them less happy. That generally means that neither party wants out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/6 "2010-08-08T21:12:24Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > A successful marriage is one where both parties keep their promise. “As long as we both shall live”. > > > > So yes, you can only tell that the promise was kept when one party dies. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > Not everyone promises to stay together as long as they both shall live. Then what are they promising? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/7 "2010-08-08T21:12:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A successful marriage is one where both parties keep their promise. “As long as we both shall live”. > > So yes, you can only tell that the promise was kept when one party dies. > > Regards, > Shodan Shodan, do you mean to say that any marriage which ends only in one party’s natural death, or death at the hand of a third party, may be considered successful? I added those qualifications because I am not trying to imply that you would call a marriage that ended with one party killing the other successful. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/8 "2010-08-08T21:12:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Not everyone promises to stay together as long as they both shall live. It might not be in the vows, but shouldn’t a lifelong commitment be implied? Why entwine your life – your emotional well-being, children, pets, finances, friends, family, property – with someone you’re not fully committed to? But I suppose a “successful” marriage can include an amicable divorce, with minimal upheaval to the kids, and both parties left with the ability to care for themselves, financially, physically, emotionally. I don’t know of any divorces like that, but there are probably quite a few. (My friends tend to do things the hard way.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/9 "2010-08-08T21:13:25Z")
The answer to the OP is yes, by the way. Any marriage that ends in separation or divorce is, by definition, a failed one. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/10 "2010-08-08T21:15:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Not everyone promises to stay together as long as they both shall live. > > Then what are they promising? Dio, the last two marriage ceremonies I attended did not include that phrasing; in both cases, the parties involved wrote their own vows. I can’t quote exactly what they did say, because I don’t walk around with a tape recorder. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/11 "2010-08-08T21:15:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Are the only “successful” marriages the ones that end in death? Ask Crippen! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/12 "2010-08-08T21:16:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > A successful marriage is one where both parties keep their promise. “As long as we both shall live”. > > > > So yes, you can only tell that the promise was kept when one party dies. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > Shodan, do you mean to say that any marriage which ends only in one party’s natural death, or death at the hand of a third party, may be considered successful? > > I added those qualifications because I am not trying to imply that you would call a marriage that ended with one party killing the other successful. Does this question really need to be asked? If one partner murders the other, then that partner is breaking his/her vow to “love, honor and cherish” the other person. I can conceive of situations where one partner could kill the other and I would still say the marriage was successful, though. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/13 "2010-08-08T21:17:43Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > I made no promise about ‘as long as we both shall live.’ Do bear in mind that not everybody (even in the US) marries with a Christian ceremony. I was once at a wedding where they said “for as long as we both shall love”. I canceled the gift check immediately. Meh, if you’re not promising forever, you’re not getting married, you’re just having a fancy party. Buy your own damned small appliances. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/14 "2010-08-08T21:18:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Then what are they promising? > > Dio, the last two marriage ceremonies I attended did not include that phrasing; in both cases, the parties involved wrote their own vows. I can’t quote exactly what they did say, because I don’t walk around with a tape recorder. They must have vowed to do _something_. Few things are more execrable than people writing their own wedding vows, by the way. That should be a felony. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/15 "2010-08-08T21:19:53Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Shodan, do you mean to say that any marriage which ends only in one party’s natural death, or death at the hand of a third party, may be considered successful? > > I added those qualifications because I am not trying to imply that you would call a marriage that ended with one party killing the other successful. That’s why I mentioned death as a necessary but not sufficient condition! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/16 "2010-08-08T21:20:29Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > I made no promise about ‘as long as we both shall live.’ Do bear in mind that not everybody (even in the US) marries with a Christian ceremony. Even secular, civil ceremonies in the US say “as long as you both shll live.” I had a civil ceremony and ours had it. What _did_ you promise? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/17 "2010-08-08T21:21:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Dio, the last two marriage ceremonies I attended did not include that phrasing; in both cases, the parties involved wrote their own vows. I can’t quote exactly what they did say, because I don’t walk around with a tape recorder. > > They must have vowed to do _something_. > > Few things are more execrable than people writing their own wedding vows, by the way. That should be a felony. That is complete and utter bullshit. Why should a pair of women–one an outright atheist, the other a Buddhist-Christian mix–be obliged to parrot the traditional wedding vows? Why should an atheist heterosexual couple? Why should people swear anything they do not entirely agree with? How better to make sure they entirely agree with their vows than to write their own? Regards, That Dude Who Hates Rhetorical Questions, but Sometimes Makes Statements by Implication in the way he signs off his posts ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/18 "2010-08-08T21:22:01Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > > [@GilaB](#): > > > > I made no promise about ‘as long as we both shall live.’ Do bear in mind that not everybody (even in the US) marries with a Christian ceremony. > > Meh, if you’re not promising forever, you’re not getting married, you’re just having a fancy party. Buy your own damned small appliances. Agreed. I actually would consider that to be an insult to the institution. Why bother at all? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/19 "2010-08-08T21:24:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > They must have vowed to do _something_. > > > > Few things are more execrable than people writing their own wedding vows, by the way. That should be a felony. > > That is complete and utter bullshit. Why should a pair of women–one an outright atheist, the other a Buddhist-Christian mix–be obliged to parrot the traditional wedding vows? Why should an atheist heterosexual couple? I never said they should. But if they aren’t promising to be together forever, they aren’t getting married. If there’s any meaningful definition of marriage, it’s lifelong commitment. If there’s no commitment, then what the fuck are they wasting everybody’s time for? Oh, and the reason I say people shouldn’t write their own vows is purely for aesthetic reasons. They’re generally excruciating to listen to. Complete ear garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/20 "2010-08-08T21:27:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > That is complete and utter bullshit. Why should a pair of women–one an outright atheist, the other a Buddhist-Christian mix–be obliged to parrot the traditional wedding vows? Why should an atheist heterosexual couple? > > I never said they should. But if they aren’t promising to be together forever, they aren’t getting married. If there’s any meaningful definition of marriage, it’s lifelong commitment. If there’s no commitment, then what the fuck are they wasting everybody’s time for? Perhaps they recognize that persons change over time. That the people they are today are not the people they will necessarily be twenty years hence. Perhaps they don’t wish to make a promise they are not sure they can keep. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618.md?page=2)