# Are the only "successful" marriages the ones that end in death? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 8, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618 "2010-08-08T20:17:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/61 "2010-08-09T15:56:26Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Heh. So if I am of the opinion that _all_ marriages should expire automatically, say, after 10 years, with a SUPER-DUPER EASY METHOD to re-up, what does that make me? I don’t WANT my marriage to expire and have to “reup.” I promised for life, and life it will be. Anyone who cannot make that promise should not get married. It completely pisses on the whole concept of marriage to build weasel words into the vows. Basically, it means you aren’t actually vowing _anything_, so the ceremony is a sham and a waste of everybody’s time. If you aren’t willing to commit to a single vow (and weaseling on the “'til death” part is weaseling on _all_ of them), what the hell is the point? I promise to be a loyal and commited partner as long as I feel like it." How is that a promise at all? It means nothing. If you’re concerned about building an escape hatch into the ceremony, then you aren’t ready to get married. It’s just about bilking government benefits at that point, not about love. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/62 "2010-08-09T16:01:26Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And ultimately, who cares what anyone else thinks? If you think your marriage was successful, it was. Except you are specifically telling other folks in here who think they have had successful marriages despite a divorce that they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/63 "2010-08-09T16:01:50Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And why is that bad? What exactly are you getting that you feel is unearned? It’s not like they’re offering cash prizes or something. > > Sure, you don’t know that your marriage would have been successful if your husband hadn’t died. You don’t know that it wouldn’t have been, either. And ultimately, who cares what anyone else thinks? If you think your marriage was successful, it was. But as this thread demonstrates, someone who is divorced who thinks their marriage was successful isn’t “allowed” to claim it was. Why do I care? We still have a pretty significant stigma against divorce that doesn’t exist against widowhood, yet the facts of divorce versus widowhood don’t actually reveal anything meaningful about the relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/64 "2010-08-09T16:02:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > > > The answer to the OP is yes. > > > > You don’t get credit. 1) If your marriage doesn’t last until one of you dies, then it was not successful. 2) Stating that the only marriages that are successful are the ones that end in death is different from stating that all marriages that end in death are successful. > > It lasted until one of us died and it was a happy marriage. But other marriages would have been successful if one of the participants had died early, too, when the marriage went on to divorce. That’s what doesn’t make sense to me. You’re making up hypothetical marital problems that you imagine would happen down the line if someone hadn’t died? That’s pretty specious. The vow is to commit until death, not to commit for a hypothetical _eternal_ life. > [@](#): > > Basically, if you get widowed early, chances are people will say you had a successful marriage. If both partners were still happen when the widowhood happened, then that WAS a successful marriage. How was it NOT? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/65 "2010-08-09T16:04:11Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > And ultimately, who cares what anyone else thinks? If you think your marriage was successful, it was. > > Except you are specifically telling other folks in here who think they have had successful marriages despite a divorce that they’re wrong. That’s what the OP asked us to do. Is only one opinion allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/66 "2010-08-09T16:06:15Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > And why is that bad? What exactly are you getting that you feel is unearned? It’s not like they’re offering cash prizes or something. > > > > Sure, you don’t know that your marriage would have been successful if your husband hadn’t died. You don’t know that it wouldn’t have been, either. And ultimately, who cares what anyone else thinks? If you think your marriage was successful, it was. > > But as this thread demonstrates, someone who is divorced who thinks their marriage was successful isn’t “allowed” to claim it was. Who says they’re not “allowed?” They can claim it all they want. I don’t have to agree with them, though. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/67 "2010-08-09T16:07:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If both partners were still happen when the widowhood happened, then that WAS a successful marriage. How was it NOT? It was. But how is the 32-year marriage that was happy for 30 years not? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/68 "2010-08-09T16:07:32Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > And ultimately, who cares what anyone else thinks? If you think your marriage was successful, it was. > > Except you are specifically telling other folks in here who think they have had successful marriages despite a divorce that they’re wrong. You’ll note that I’m specifically addressing the OP, whose husband died. That said, I’m pretty sure that my opinion of the relative success or failure of anyone’s marriage isn’t really affecting their quality of life. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/69 "2010-08-09T16:11:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Asimovian](#): > > > > Except you are specifically telling other folks in here who think they have had successful marriages despite a divorce that they’re wrong. > > That’s what the OP asked us to do. Is only one opinion allowed? I don’t have a problem with multiple opinions being shared. I’m pointing out that DianaG seems to be contradicting herself. Although, on preview: > [@DianaG](#): > > You’ll note that I’m specifically addressing the OP, whose husband died. > > That said, I’m pretty sure that my opinion of the relative success or failure of anyone’s marriage isn’t really affecting their quality of life. Do you believe that two people who are or were committed to one another can define their marriage the way they see fit, whether or not you _personally_ agree with their definition? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/70 "2010-08-09T16:12:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > If both partners were still happen when the widowhood happened, then that WAS a successful marriage. How was it NOT? > > It was. But how is the 32-year marriage that was happy for 30 years not? Because it failed. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/71 "2010-08-09T16:12:32Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > > [@Asimovian](#): > > > > Except you are specifically telling other folks in here who think they have had successful marriages despite a divorce that they’re wrong. > > You’ll note that I’m specifically addressing the OP, whose husband died. > > That said, I’m pretty sure that my opinion of the relative success or failure of anyone’s marriage isn’t really affecting their quality of life. I’d say that’s not true. The friend of a friend was married happily for 30 years, unhappily for 1, and divorced at 32. She doesn’t get congratulations and praise for 30 years of making it work; she’s a failure. She has something the US at large thinks is a black mark against her. Married happily for longer than I was, married happily for a significant chunk of my entire life span, yet that’s a failure and something to be ashamed of. That just strikes me as remarkably odd, that between the two of us I have the circumstances that people would call “successful” and she has the circumstances people would call “failure” even though what she did was more impressive than what I did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/72 "2010-08-09T16:14:36Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Do you believe that two people who are or were committed to one another can define their marriage the way they see fit, whether or not you _personally_ agree with their definition? No. I mean they “can” in the legal sense, but you can also call a duck a horse, but that won’t make it whinny. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/73 "2010-08-09T16:17:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > > [@DianaG](#): > > > > You’ll note that I’m specifically addressing the OP, whose husband died. > > > > That said, I’m pretty sure that my opinion of the relative success or failure of anyone’s marriage isn’t really affecting their quality of life. > > I’d say that’s not true. > > The friend of a friend was married happily for 30 years, unhappily for 1, and divorced at 32. She doesn’t get congratulations and praise for 30 years of making it work; she’s a failure. Why are you conflating the success of a marriage with the character of the person? Just because a marriage fails, doesn’t mean the person did. People can also have successful, long-lasting marriages without being good people. One thing has nothing to do with the other. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/74 "2010-08-09T16:19:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Asimovian](#): > > > > Do you believe that two people who are or were committed to one another can define their marriage the way they see fit, whether or not you _personally_ agree with their definition? > > No. I mean they “can” in the legal sense, but you can also call a duck a horse, but that won’t make it whinny. I’m well aware of your thought process on the matter at this point. If I thought we were having an actual discussion, I’d delve further into it, but the “I’m right and nothing else is worth considering” attitude doesn’t really lend itself to a two-way street. I’m still interested in **DianaG** ’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/75 "2010-08-09T16:20:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why are you conflating the success of a marriage with the character of the person? Just because a marriage fails, doesn’t mean the person did. People can also have successful, long-lasting marriages without being good people. One thing has nothing to do with the other. There are many who would disagree with that. People are often made to feel like failures in society because they couldn’t hold their marriages together. As was stated, there is absolutely a stigma that goes with being divorced. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/76 "2010-08-09T16:24:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It lasted until one of us died and it was a happy marriage. But other marriages would have been successful if one of the participants had died early, too, when the marriage went on to divorce. That’s what doesn’t make sense to me. > > Basically, if you get widowed early, chances are people will say you had a successful marriage. Why does that bother you? Do you think there’s a Marriage Brownie Point score sheet somewhere, and you’re getting points unfairly? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/77 "2010-08-09T16:26:46Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Do you believe that two people who are or were committed to one another can define their marriage the way they see fit, whether or not you _personally_ agree with their definition? Dude, I’m not the boss of anyone. I was asked for an opinion, and I gave it. I’m not trying to legislate it or anything. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/78 "2010-08-09T16:29:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The friend of a friend was married happily for 30 years, unhappily for 1, and divorced at 32. She doesn’t get congratulations and praise for 30 years of making it work; she’s a failure. She has something the US at large thinks is a black mark against her. Married happily for longer than I was, married happily for a significant chunk of my entire life span, yet that’s a failure and something to be ashamed of. What part of Mayberry does your friend live in? Divorce is \*beyond \*common at this point. I really can’t believe that anyone wants to embroider a scarlet D on your friend’s blouson. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/79 "2010-08-09T16:30:14Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > No. I mean they “can” in the legal sense, but you can also call a duck a horse, but that won’t make it whinny. > > I’m well aware of your thought process on the matter at this point. If I thought we were having an actual discussion, I’d delve further into it, but the “I’m right and nothing else is worth considering” attitude doesn’t really lend itself to a two-way street. The thread is an opinion poll. I gave my opinion. I believe my opinion would be the majority opinion in the world. I’m not going to alter it to keep from hurting somebody’s feelings. For what it’s worth, I DON"T see a broken marriage as conferring any necessary stigma on the people involved. I also think it’s a time and place (in the US) where divorce, even multiple divorce, is so commonplace that I don’t think the culture is very shaming about it. Not that I’ve noticed anyway. Of course, I’ve never been divorced, but I know like a billion people that have, and I haven’t heard this is a particular problem. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618/80 "2010-08-09T16:35:24Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Divorce is \*beyond \*common at this point. I really can’t believe that anyone wants to embroider a scarlet D on your friend’s blouson. A scarlet D, no. But there are no offers of sympathy and support of the kind she would get if she were widowed. Divorce is seen as a warning sign for lots of people if they’re considering dating you. It’s accepted as a fact of society, but it’s still looked down on. I would bet that if you compared dopers who have been divorced to dopers who have been widowed, you’d see a big difference in the way they were treated after their marriages were over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-only-successful-marriages-the-ones-that-end-in-death/549618.md?page=5)