# Are the Palestinians wising up? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717 "2003-05-22T02:20:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/1 "2003-05-22T02:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Hundreds of Palestinians demonstrated Tuesday after a five-day Israeli invasion damaged farms and buildings, but in a rare twist, their wrath was directed at Palestinian militants for inviting the attack by firing rockets from their property. [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030521/ap\_on\_re\_mi\_ea/israel\_palestinians\_394](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030521/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_394) Let’s hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/2 "2003-05-22T03:33:22Z")
I think you’re being tremendously unfair if you think they all support the suicide bombings - most of them have had to deal with the repercussions of them for years and are probably aware how much good it’s doing. Not that I think this is a bad sign. ---
**Author:** ![Nagarjuna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nagarjuna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nagarjuna)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/3 "2003-05-22T05:22:04Z")
“Wising up”. Did you ask yourself this question when Germany invaded Poland too? “Are the Polish people wising up? Let´s hope so, because if they aren´t, they _deserve_ Nazi occupation.” This is not a “two sides”-conflict, it is a matter of occupation and resistance against occupation, and a matter of apartheid and resistance against apartheid. People all over the world, including many US citizens, were appalled and disgusted by the Apartheid regime of South Africa, but today - owing a lot to Christian fundamentalism - lots of people support the **oppressors**. It´s truly absurd what religions can do to people… ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/4 "2003-05-22T10:08:13Z")
_This is not a “two sides”-conflict, it is a matter of occupation and resistance against occupation…_ I like how you claim it’s not a two sided conflict and then describe it in terms of two sides… ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/5 "2003-05-22T13:42:27Z")
i assume that **Nagarjuna** meant that it was not a matter of _equal_ forces in opposition, or that there was moral, military, or political parity between the forces involved. just my guess. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/6 "2003-05-22T14:38:46Z")
It sounded more to me like “Israelis = bad; Palestinians = good” to me. And if he’s got his mind that made up, no amount of logic, reason or historical background is going to convince him otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/7 "2003-05-22T14:45:26Z")
Wising up? What are you suggesting they were before? Stupid? You make it sound like it’s _easy_ to stop a load of nutters intent on suicide bombing, simply by virtue of being part of the same people. I’m not sure I’d be brave enough to demand suicide bombers stop what they were doing … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/8 "2003-05-22T15:48:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*I think you’re being tremendously unfair if you think they all support the suicide bombings \*\* [http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2003/no48.htm](http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2003/no48.htm) around 60-70% support suicide bombings, around 30% don’t like them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/9 "2003-05-22T15:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\* And if he’s got his mind that made up, no amount of logic, reason or historical background is going to convince him otherwise. \*\* this is a hijack, but what historical proof, logic & reason you speak of? I have talked to alot of people who supported the Palestinians, and their views were usually motivated by emotions, not logic. Please inform me of the logical reasons why the palestinians are in the right, i would like to hear something new. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/10 "2003-05-22T15:54:34Z")
Not to speak for **Eve** , but re-read the thread and see if you can draw a different conclusion to the meaning of her post. I certainly did. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/11 "2003-05-22T15:55:23Z")
“Please inform me of the logical reasons why the palestinians are in the right, i would like to hear something new.” —None of it’s new; go and search the many, many threads in the past that have hashed through both sides of the issue and the historical background—not just **Nagarjuna** knee-jerk “Israel is nothing but Nazi Germany” party line. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/12 "2003-05-22T15:56:51Z")
Oh, and you seem to have gotten me backwards—I am on _Israel’s_ side, not the Palestinians’. Though I _am_ fully aware that Israel has not always handled the ghastly situation in the most felictious way. ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/13 "2003-05-22T16:29:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nagarjuna \* > \*\*“Wising up”. > > Did you ask yourself this question when Germany invaded Poland too? “Are the Polish people wising up? Let´s hope so, because if they aren´t, they _deserve_ Nazi occupation.” > \*\* You might consider reading up on the concept of the straw-man, as well as “Godwin’s Law” (basically, that comparisons to Nazi Germany are too emotionally-charged to be considered a valid debate tactic). ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/14 "2003-05-22T16:46:20Z")
Just a WAG, but perhaps after the appointment of Palestinian PM Abbas, the moderate faction in Palestine feels more free to speak out. I assume there’s always been a moderate Palestinian faction, but that before a viable foil to Arafat came on the scene, that faction was unable to make itself heard. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/15 "2003-05-22T19:01:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*—None of it’s new; go and search the many, many threads in the past that have hashed through both sides of the issue and the historical background—not just **Nagarjuna** knee-jerk “Israel is nothing but Nazi Germany” party line. \*\* Thanks. Its just that i argue about the israel issue on another board and the pro-palestinian arguments arent that good. i assumed there was better info out there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/16 "2003-05-22T21:05:13Z")
That’s a percentage of respondents to the site. And a number of the summaries they give contradict the idea that the bombings are massively popular. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/17 "2003-05-22T23:03:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Andy \* > \*\*Wising up? What are you suggesting they were before? Stupid? > You make it sound like it’s _easy_ to stop a load of nutters intent on suicide bombing, simply by virtue of being part of the same people. > I’m not sure I’d be brave enough to demand suicide bombers stop what they were doing … \*\* I always wondered what would happen if they were to hold peace rallys, complete with a cleric who demanded peace instead of death. ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/18 "2003-05-23T00:05:14Z")
**Marley23:** > [@](#): > > And a number of the summaries they give contradict the idea that the bombings are massively popular. I’d like to see those summaries, if you could link me to them. I’d love to see a glimmer of hope. **Magiver** > [@](#): > > I always wondered what would happen if they were to hold peace rallys, complete with a cleric who demanded peace instead of death. Interesting that you should bring that up. As a non-religious Reform Jew, from the time I started thinking about this issue in the mid 80s, all the history and experience I had led me to conclude that Israel was this heroic little country fending off hate-filled irrational Palestinians and other hate-filled Arab nations. Even with that messy little episode in Lebanon - and Sabra and Shatila - my sympathies fell toward the Israelis. But the first intifada in 1988 really shattered my simplistic illusion. I saw a genuine grass-roots movement among those living in the territories. I saw regular, everyday Palestinians (many of whom were children) asserting what little power they had and not taking their cue from some of the disgusting Palestinian leaders. I saw many Palestinians making the extremely difficult decision to strike instead of working for their Israeli bosses. I saw heroic and non-violent (relatively speaking, of course) resistance to the Israeli occupation, and I admired it. Not so coincidentally, Yasir Arafat’s role in the first intifada was muted - he was more a follower than a leader. IMHO, if the Palestinians seek American sympathy to their plight, which might give a U.S. president the political cover necessary to twist Israel’s arm, they would be wise to adopt these tactics again. I also suspect these sorts of resistance tactics will enable the evil crafty Jews (both Israeli and American) who run the U.S. government behind the scenes :rolleyes: to feel safe in returning to their natural liberal worldview and marginalize Sharon and the Likudniks in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/19 "2003-05-23T10:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > \*\*I always wondered what would happen if they were to hold peace rallys, complete with a cleric who demanded peace instead of death. \*\* Ever heard of Mubarak ‘Awad? He tried that. He tried Gandhian nonviolent resistance. As soon as he started to have an effect, the Israelis deported him. Perhaps they understood that as long as they fought violent Palestinians, they could get away with murder, but once they were up against Gandhi they had no chance. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717/20 "2003-05-23T13:11:20Z")
On the Palestinian television program _A Message To The World_ a caller commented on the latest peace plan. “We will never accept any plan that is given to us, because freedom cannot be given, it must be taken!” Is that a common belief for Palestinians [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-palestinians-wising-up/176717.md?page=2)