# Are the police a separate caste system then the general population and is that acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306 "2014-03-09T23:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/21 "2014-03-10T21:25:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In the last few years it has been. Ethics classes in the academy and in-service training has touched on it, pointing out the difficult position the on duty officer is put in when an off duty ID’s himself. > > There is also the issue of police /community relations. It simply rubs the public the wrong way knowing an officer will get away with doing what the average person will get tagged for. Police should get double penalties for crimes they commit. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/22 "2014-03-10T21:39:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In that case, the man was released without being charged, and the [officer was “suspended without pay for one day and forbidden to take lucrative detail work for another 15 days”.](http://wpri.com/2014/03/06/massachusetts-man-arrested-after-recording-police-officer-in-street/) > > This is the story of one cop being a dick, and being punished for it. It doesn’t support the idea of police as a separate caste. That’s how it reads to me, too. The article doesn’t support the claim, and the claim isn’t particularly clear. Do police abuse their power? I’m sure that many do and many do not. I bet this is true of all positions of power. Is US society getting better or worse in this regard? I don’t know, but I suspect it’s a lot more visible now thanks to just about everyone, just about everywhere, having a convenient portable video camera. I’ll let those in positions of power respond with their impressions. I’m in a position of great power: the power to take out the garbage when told, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/23 "2014-03-10T21:43:41Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Police should get double penalties for crimes they commit. And if they commit murder in a state/nation with the death penalty? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/24 "2014-03-10T21:57:47Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Police should get double penalties for crimes they commit. Should, yes. Will they ever? Never. :mad: Back in the 70’s & 80’s, the LAPD Academy Store began selling license plate frames which read [“KMA-367”](http://www.amazon.com/Angeles-Police-Department-License-Plastic/dp/B00BQRWC5M), which was the LAPD Call Sign at the time; ostensibly, its purpose was a secret signal to other cops that they were off-duty LAPD, or someone related, so cops should pass them over like Azrael in the Exodus story. Naturally, their purpose was diluted once word got out and regular civilians began buying them, but you still see the frames around L.A. from time to time. [The Perfect Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/714/in-los-angeles-why-do-so-many-license-plate-holders-say-kma367) even wrote an article about it. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/25 "2014-03-10T22:07:54Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Police should get double penalties for crimes they commit. You are aware that my posts are referring to traffic violations, which are not crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/26 "2014-03-10T22:20:33Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Police should get double penalties for crimes they commit. If they get sent to prison, they pretty much do get double the grief. > [@WilyQuixote](#): > > And if they commit murder in a state/nation with the death penalty? Execute them twice! If there’s no death penalty, then make them serve TWO life sentences! Consecutively! ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/27 "2014-03-10T23:49:25Z")
The fact is that the police requires special powers in order to do what they do, and without special protections, some of those powers would be useless. People complain about the police because they are a visible and easy target but there are many types of people and jobs where special privileges are a must. I have no problems with the police having some special powers and protection, the tradeoff is much worst for society ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/28 "2014-03-11T00:37:34Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If teachers have the legal authority to assault students, taser them, haul them off to jail or shoot them dead, then sure. Otherwise, you’re claiming a false equivalency. Er… I wasn’t trying to defend the cop. I was asking that based on the wording of the law based on the way the article reports it. Frankly if the article is correct it strikes me as a really poorly written law. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/29 "2014-03-11T01:16:47Z")
In the past I’m sure they were moreso than they are now. Caste isn’t the word for it though, more like an elevated class who had the ability to engage in traffic violations, domestic violence, abuse of civilians, theft, intimidation, etc w/o repercussions. I’m assuming that is far less common now than 40+ years ago. Are they now? I don’t know. Aside from having their word count for more than non-cops (unless those non-cops have a video camera) and getting out of minor traffic violations do they have any special abilities anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/30 "2014-03-11T01:43:35Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > If they get sent to prison, they pretty much do get double the grief. > > Execute them twice! If there’s no death penalty, then make them serve TWO life sentences! Consecutively! There should be automatic and unappealable death sentences for police who kill innocent bystanders, no matter what their excuse. I’m sick of it. It’s got to stop. This case makes me sick: [http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=40204](http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=40204) \*All \*involved should be executed! They violated \*every \*protection in the constitution! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/31 "2014-03-11T02:07:31Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Police should get double penalties for crimes they commit. So he should have been suspended without pay for two days? > [@Melchior](#): > > \*All \*involved should be executed! Twice! ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/32 "2014-03-11T02:16:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So he should have been suspended without pay for two days?Twice! Even the Gestapo had more class than this! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/33 "2014-03-11T14:39:02Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Are they now? I don’t know. Aside from having their word count for more than non-cops (unless those non-cops have a video camera) and getting out of minor traffic violations do they have any special abilities anymore? They can kill people without going to prison for it as often as a civilian who killed someone would, or at least that’s the impression one gets from the [Kelly Thomas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas), [Amadou Diallo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo), and [Sean Bell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident) cases, to name three of way-too-many. > [@Melchior](#): > > There should be automatic and unappealable death sentences for police who kill innocent bystanders, no matter what their excuse. I’m sick of it. It’s got to stop. How about if their excuse was that it was an accident, and the evidence backs them up, a la the Oscar Grant case? Surely Johannes Mehserle shouldn’t be executed for accidentally drawing his pistol instead of his Taser! ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/34 "2014-03-11T14:53:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They can kill people without going to prison for it as often as a civilian who killed someone would, or at least that’s the impression one gets from the [Kelly Thomas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas), [Amadou Diallo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo), and [Sean Bell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell_shooting_incident) cases, to name three of way-too-many. > > How about if their excuse was that it was an accident, and the evidence backs them up, a la the Oscar Grant case? Surely Johannes Mehserle shouldn’t be executed for accidentally drawing his pistol instead of his Taser! Yes he should! The only way to stop police excess is to start treating them like everyone else! ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/35 "2014-03-11T14:58:22Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > Yes he should! > > the only way to stop police excess is to start treating them like everyone else! That’s not what you’re advocating, though, as giving police double penalties for crimes the commit, and executing them for involuntary manslaughter, is not at all treating them like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/36 "2014-03-11T15:00:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s not what you’re advocating, though, as giving police double penalties for crimes the commit, and executing them for involuntary manslaughter, is not at all treating them like everyone else. OK, you’re right. They need to be held to a \*higher \*standard because of their powers. Thus, double penalties. I am sick of it. Even the Nazis had more class. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/37 "2014-03-11T15:13:45Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > OK, you’re right. They need to be held to a \*higher \*standard because of their powers. Thus, double penalties. Ok, a few notes: 1. Jumping from 2-4 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter to the death penalty is considerably more than doubling the penalty. 2. Removing the ability to appeal convictions means you’re going to get unjust and incorrect verdicts. 3. Imposing this sort of risk on police officers is going to have multiple effects, none of them particularly positive: the best qualified officers leaving for other careers, and being replaced by people whose main skill is being willing to tolerate risk; officers carrying extra pistols to drop on people they shoot; and police departments working systematically to cover up misconduct, frame alternate suspects, slander victims, destroy evidence, and etc; and officers being so unwilling to use force that they allow criminals to flee, fail to serve warrants, fail to appropriately investigate crimes, and generally stop doing their jobs. > [@Melchior](#): > > I am sick of it. Even the Nazis had more class. I don’t know what that means…they had more class because they didn’t offer excuses for their murders? They didn’t need to, they weren’t accountable to an electorate. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/38 "2014-03-11T15:17:20Z")
[quote=“Human\_Action, post:37, topic:683306”] Ok, a few notes: 1. Jumping from 2-4 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter to the death penalty is considerably more than doubling the penalty. 2. Removing the ability to appeal convictions means you’re going to get unjust and incorrect verdicts. 3. Imposing this sort of risk on police officers is going to have multiple effects, none of them particularly positive: the best qualified officers leaving for other careers, and being replaced by people whose main skill is being willing to tolerate risk; officers carrying extra pistols to drop on people they shoot; and police departments working systematically to cover up misconduct, frame alternate suspects, slander victims, destroy evidence, and etc; and officers being so unwilling to use force that they allow criminals to flee, fail to serve warrants, fail to appropriately investigate crimes, and generally stop doing their jobs. QUOTE] All of this already goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/39 "2014-03-11T15:20:33Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > All of this already goes on. To some degree, sure (well, items 3b and 3c. 3a and 3d don’t). Adding the plain injustice of automatic death penalties would make it several orders of magnitude worse. I mean, I’m no booster of law enforcement, nor do I work in that field, but even I might lie on behalf of a policeman (or anyone) if telling the truth meant seeing them executed for involuntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/40 "2014-03-11T15:24:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > To some degree, sure (well, items 3b and 3c. 3a and 3d don’t). Adding the plain injustice of automatic death penalties would make it several orders of magnitude worse. I mean, I’m no booster of law enforcement, nor do I work in that field, but even I might lie on behalf of a policeman (or anyone) if telling the truth meant seeing them executed for involuntary manslaughter. It’s gone too far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306.md?page=3)