# Are the police a separate caste system then the general population and is that acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306 "2014-03-09T23:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/41 "2014-03-11T15:25:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s obviously not a caste system. Police officers do not marry other police officers and their children do not grow up to be police officers - at least not routinely. But some of the benefits extend to the family. My friend’s dad was a cop and got pulled over for speeding and he flashed a card he got from his dad and the cop that pulled him over asked him “does your dad know you drive this fast” scolded hima bit more, quizzed him on other people at his dad’s precinct and let us go without a ticket. > [@](#): > > Do police officers treat other police officers differently than they treat the average person? Probably. But they’re not unique in that. Lawyers, dentists, plumbers, farmers, and people in a bunch of other random professions probably treat members of the same occupation differently than they treat the average person. I’ve never seen a prosecutor decline to prosecute someone (or a judge decline to sentence someone) because they are an attorney. Heck, I don’t even catch a break in traffic court. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/42 "2014-03-11T15:30:42Z")
Well he said they “had” more class, but isn’t clear at what point. In later years, they were kinda jerks, in my opinion anyway, and I don’t care who that offends. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/43 "2014-03-11T15:39:34Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It’s gone too far. The problem, as illustrated in those three example cases I cited, is the unwillingness of juries to convict the officers. Making the penalties more draconian would make jurors even more reluctant to convict. What’s needed is cultural change. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/44 "2014-03-11T15:41:32Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > In the last few years it has been. Ethics classes in the academy and in-service training has touched on it, pointing out the difficult position the on duty officer is put in when an off duty ID’s himself. > > There is also the issue of police /community relations. It simply rubs the public the wrong way knowing an officer will get away with doing what the average person will get tagged for. I appreciate the information! I would describe it as a bit more than “rubs the public the wrong way.” That kind of makes it sounds like a public relations issue, when really it’s a question that goes to the heart of justice: do we believe in treating people equally, or not? If we don’t–if we put people in charge of enforcing our laws, and then allow them to flout the laws with impunity–it indicates that at a very basic level we don’t believe in justice. Of course police have certain powers that the rest of us don’t have. That’s all the more reason to monitor their use of those powers to ensure that they’re used only in the course of law enforcement, not used for personal gain. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/45 "2014-03-11T15:45:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The problem, as illustrated in those three example cases I cited, is the unwillingness of juries to convict the officers. Making the penalties more draconian would make jurors even more reluctant to convict. What’s needed is cultural change. I would vote to convict. I would \*presume \*the officers are lying anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/46 "2014-03-11T15:47:14Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I would vote to convict. I would \*presume \*the officers are lying anyway. You would never vote to convict, because you’d be thrown off the jury in a heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/47 "2014-03-11T15:51:57Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I would vote to convict. And that would be pretty reasonable, in those cases. Note that the officers were indicted and brought to trial, and evidence presented against them; their departments were not able to stop this, or make the evidence vanish. The system seems to work (generally, it is true that charges weren’t filed against the officer who shot Andrew Lee Scott), the weak link is the jurors. > [@Melchior](#): > > I would \*presume \*the officers are lying anyway. You had me, then you lost me. What you’re describing is denying the accused a fair trial. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/48 "2014-03-11T15:52:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You would never vote to convict, because you’d be thrown off the jury in a heartbeat. I would be very careful during the screening not to say anything. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/49 "2014-03-11T16:08:18Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I would be very careful during the screening not to say anything. Good luck with the perjury, chief. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/50 "2014-03-11T16:09:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Good luck with the perjury, chief. What? You never heard of having a ‘change of heart’? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/51 "2014-03-11T16:10:38Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > What? You never heard of having a ‘change of heart’? Again, good luck with the perjury, chief. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/52 "2014-03-11T17:52:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You would never vote to convict, because you’d be thrown off the jury in a heartbeat. He would first need to get on the jury which I can’t see happening unless he lied very convincingly during voir dire. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/53 "2014-03-11T17:56:50Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I would be very careful during the screening not to say anything. You should learn about how Voir Dire operates before making such a foolish statement. It is not possible to “not say anything.” I’m sure you think you’re making yourself look clever, but you’re not. I notice you have a recent join date so I’ll note that such arguments here aren’t terribly successful. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/54 "2014-03-11T19:11:06Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > It’s gone too far. And the answer is not to swing it that far in the other direction. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/55 "2014-03-11T19:25:12Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yes they kind of are, in a way. And no it’s not acceptable. > > But then, as far as I know we’ve yet to discover an effective inoculation against power’s corrupting influence. So we’re kind of stuck with it. Traditionally, the notion of checks and balances is supposed to mitigate if not eliminate the worst of it. However, there are few of those that apply to cops after the fact and none whatsoever while they’re in the process of power-tripping (and even fewer when the powers that be are content to have a loyal if incompetent/corrupt/brutal police force to rely on, meaning DAs and mayors and so on will only go after cops when they are left with no other possible option). Citizens with cameras seem to be pretty efficient at removing other options, but then again 1) some places have made specifically that illegal, for some reason :dubious: 2) the cops themselves often don’t think twice about seizing or even destroying cameras and phones outright, as in the OP’s story. Prove they did in court, go on ! [QUOTE=Little Nemo] Lawyers, dentists, plumbers, farmers, and people in a bunch of other random professions probably treat members of the same occupation differently than they treat the average person. [/QUOTE] But none of them have any power to make your life utterly miserable. Well, except maybe the dentists. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/56 "2014-03-11T22:51:23Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > There should be automatic and unappealable death sentences for police who kill innocent bystanders, no matter what their excuse Sick bastard takes an AR15 w/40 round mag into a crowded Walmart and decides today is the day people are going to pay for him being a looser. Just so happens a police officer was in the store answering a shoplifting complaint. Officer gets into a violent gun fight with Mr. Massshooterwannabe, stopping him. Unfortunately, in the heat of battle, one of the officers rounds missed and hit/killed a shopper. Officer prevented dozens of innocents from getting gunned down, but you want him executed because _ **“there should be automatic and unappealable death sentences for police who kill innocent bystanders, no matter what their excuse”.** _ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/57 "2014-03-11T23:30:05Z")
“automatic and unappealable,” are two words that really give the middle finger to the law, fairness, common sense and humanity. Taking people’s lives based on “automatic and unappealable” is… well, it’s what the bad guys do in movies. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/58 "2014-03-12T01:54:05Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > “automatic and unappealable,” are two words that really give the middle finger to the law, fairness, common sense and humanity. Taking people’s lives based on “automatic and unappealable” is… well, it’s what the bad guys do in movies. That is obviously not the kind of situation I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/59 "2014-03-12T02:59:28Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Sick bastard takes an AR15 w/40 round mag into a crowded Walmart and decides today is the day people are going to pay for him being a looser. > > Just so happens a police officer was in the store answering a shoplifting complaint. Officer gets into a violent gun fight with Mr. Massshooterwannabe, stopping him. Unfortunately, in the heat of battle, one of the officers rounds missed and hit/killed a shopper. > > Officer prevented dozens of innocents from getting gunned down, but you want him executed because _ **“there should be automatic and unappealable death sentences for police who kill innocent bystanders, no matter what their excuse”.** _ > > :rolleyes: If nothing else, your post demonstrates that we _really_ need to bring back the original “rolleyes” smiley! ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306/60 "2014-03-12T04:53:18Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > That is obviously not the kind of situation I was referring to. :dubious: Nothing was obvious. You made a statement of absolutes, and then strengthened it by posting how you would lie by omission to get on a jury to insure a conviction, ignoring anything else except your agenda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-police-a-separate-caste-system-then-the-general-population-and-is-that-acceptable/683306.md?page=4)