# Are the poor to blame for their poverty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193 "2002-05-10T00:29:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/61 "2002-05-13T21:28:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > Well, by this standard, any tax rate is confiscatory. It’s not a standard, it’s a counterargument, and there is no reasonable way to conclude from it that all taxes are confiscatory. > [@](#): > > Our society is way too interactive to say that any money you earn is automatically and a priori yours. The word “earn” implies that is indeed yours. And I think that the _prima facae_ position should be that everyone I hold, I deserve. > [@](#): > > From the point of view of the living heirs, it is hard to justify how they are entitled to any of the money if we really believe in equality of opportunity. But it is even harder to justify how someone who never even met the guy is entitled to the money. > [@](#): > > I have a hard time believing that the price of housing in say the entire silicon valley region isn’t influenced by the high incomes of many in that region. … who moved there from somewhere else. So there must be a bunch of empty houses somewhere else, right? > [@](#): > > ]Anyway, my point here is that all sorts of decisions we make to have a capitalistic society with corporate law and patent law the way it is, etc., etc. are decisions that are going to [affect] the distribution of wealth that we have. How do you get from that to “we can take as much of your money as we want”? > [@](#): > > I fail to really see that much of a distinction. perhaps this will get you started: [http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=tolerate](http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=tolerate) [http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=promote](http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=promote) > [@](#): > > In the end, they both give you the same result. No, they don’t. > [@](#): > > My point is that one has failed to consider anything in between the policies of “noone gets any M&Ms” and “one child gets two and the other gets 100”. The point is that such intermediaries are irrelevant. To say that on is acting immorally is to say that they are causing net hurt, not that they are causing net benefit, but they could cause a greater net benefit if they wanted to. [quote] To me, this seems unfair to the child getting only 2 even if he is better off than if he had gotten none. [/qoute] Why? > [@](#): > > Libertarians try to circumvent this process by claiming a priori that there is a fundamental right here that is being violated and thus that society does not have the right to make such decisions. [Of course, they are perfectly happy with all the decisions that lead to the very unequal wealth distribution to begin with.] Yes. Because those decisions don’t violate anyone’s rights. > [@](#): > > I also note again that Buffett and William Gates Senior would also disagree with you. I did not find that convincing the first time, nor do I now. (BTW, do you not find any irony in claiming that the opinions of the rich are given too much weight in our society, while presenting the opinions of the rich as if they are more important than opinions in general?) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/62 "2002-05-13T21:30:20Z")
"And I think that the prima facae position should be that everyone I hold, I deserve. " That should be “everything I hold”. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/63 "2002-05-14T02:58:47Z")
**The Ryan** , well it is late and I don’t think most of what you posted really needs much of a reply. It basically boils down to bizarre word nitpicking (“You said ‘earn’ and therefore it must means it’s all mine”) and you saying, “Everything that I think is correct I define as a right and everything that you think is correct I define as a violation of that right.” But I will respond to this last point… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > > (BTW, do you not find any irony in claiming that the opinions of the rich are given too much weight in our society, while presenting the opinions of the rich as if they are more important than opinions in general?) Indeed, I do see the irony in it in a certain way; it is the sort of nice rich irony that I enjoy. But in a more serious sense, the point is that if you think that these policies are vindictive against a certain group of people, why is it that some prominent members of this group of people who should feel victimized do not feel so in any way whatsoever? This is despite the fact that it is in their own economic self interest to agree with you and despite the fact, that I doubt you will disagree with, that most people tend to overestimate rather than underestimate the extent to which policies might be unfair to them. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/64 "2002-05-14T05:44:46Z")
**jshore** , turn from the dark side before it’s too late… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/65 "2002-05-14T06:35:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jshore \* > \*\ ***The Ryan** , well it is late and I don’t think most of what you posted really needs much of a reply. It basically boils down to bizarre word nitpicking (“You said ‘earn’ and therefore it must means it’s all mine”) That’s not nitpicking. That’s what the word “earn” means. > [@](#): > > and you saying, “Everything that I think is correct I define as a right and everything that you think is correct I define as a violation of that right.” You have it backwards. It is not “I consider it a right because I think it is correct” but “I thinks it’s correct because it’s a right”. Your implication that the correspondence between what I think is correct and what I think is a right is suspicious is odd. > [@](#): > > that most people tend to overestimate rather than underestimate the extent to which policies might be unfair to them. Yes, most people. And some won’t. So just what does the fact that some people have opinions against their self interests prove? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/66 "2002-05-14T16:39:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Main Entry: **[sup]1[/sup]earn** > Pronunciation: '&rn > Function: _transitive verb_ > Etymology: Middle English _ernen_, from Old English _earnian_; akin to Old High German _arnOn_ to reap, Czech _jesen_ autumn > Date: before 12th century > **1 a** : to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered **b** : to bring in by way of return \ > **2 a** : to come to be duly worthy of or entitled or suited to \ **b** : to make worthy of or obtain for \ > > - **earn·er** noun Don’t see anything in there about automatically keeping it all after you’ve earned it, _i.e._, “it’s all mine.” Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Beaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Grim\_Beaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Beaker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/67 "2002-05-14T20:25:02Z")
For the most part I agree with Hazel’s assessment of the advantages of a wealthy (or even middle class) upbringing over a poor upbringing. Generally speaking it’s fairly difficult for people to move up in their socio-economic class (i.e. the poor have a very difficult time becoming middle class, the middle class have a difficult time becoming wealthy). I believe a number of cultural factors are responsible for this phenomenon. IMHO people are typically socialized to behave and think in a manner consistent with the socio-economic class in which they are brought up. This tends to make poor people act in a manner that generally keeps them poor. The same with middle class people. This very issue has been studied by sociologists. People who come from a middle class background, even if temporarily “poor”, are much more likely than the working poor to become middle class earners. So what’s the solution? How do we give the poor an opportunity to improve their lot? I say opportunity because IMHO systematic reward without effort (or with very little effort) produces some negative results. Why do the majority of lottery winners seem to wind up back where they started within 10 years? I believe it’s because they simply don’t have the skills or knowledge to maintain that level of wealth. I don’t believe that higher taxes for the rich and more programs for the poor is necessarily the solution. For a government program (or combination of government programs) for the poor to be effective it should markedly increase the rate at which the poor transition to the middle class. Does an effective program as I’ve described it exist in the U.S.? This may be cynical of me but I don’t think so. Is it possible to create such a hypothetical effective program? Maybe, but unlikely. To successfully change the thought patterns and behaviors of a class of people such that they are more likely to succeed economically is a difficult proposition at best. Let’s take the same poor adult and put them through two different hypothetical timelines. Timeline 1: Removed from his neighborhood at 21 he lives with, eats with, plays with, works with, etc. and learns with a middle class family for 5 years. Timeline 2: Continues living in his lower class neighbourhood, continues to work his near minimum wage job, and continues to socialize with people who he works and lives with (who more or less share the same views and have similar backgrounds) for the next 5 years. This person is eligible for a number of government programs which will help pay for medical expenses as well as a large portion of his college education should he choose to attend. IMHO the chances are substantially better that the adult in the first timeline will change enough to allow them to progress well on their own then the adult in the second timeline. The best we can do is try various solutions until we have one which sucks less then the others. The important thing, IMHO, is to work towards programs which promote skills, knowledge and an attitude which facilitates the move to a better financial state. Grim ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193/68 "2002-05-14T22:33:43Z")
“Perhaps you think the poor may have their part? Bond damns the poor and hates them from his heart. The grave Sir Gilbert holds it for a rule That every man in want is knave or fool. `God cannot love`, says Blunt, with tearless eyes, `The wretch he starves`, and piously denies. But the good Bishop, with a meeker air, Admits, and leaves them Providence`s care.” ``` Alexander Pope, Moral Epistles ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-poor-to-blame-for-their-poverty/108193.md?page=3)