Are the rich hiding $21 trillion?

Great Debates
101

And the same tax rates?

And no you are not arguing for that, at least you weren’t the last time I asked you. What about your wish list when I asked you to state your ideal scenario of what you wanted to cut from government? We had an EPA, FDA and Department of Education under Clinton if I recall correctly. I don’t have time to go dig it up right now because you’ve been posting in almost every single politics thread on this board recently, but what you stated was much more extreme than what you’re saying now. Have whatever opinion you want, but at least be consistent about it and own it.

You state that I am arguing for increased government (I’d like a cite for me arguing that by the way, and I know how much you like getting asked for cites), which is a complete fabrication, and now you’re claiming something completely different from the last time you were asked to clearly state your opinion. How can people debate you when what you claim you’re arguing for changes post to post and thread to thread?

102

I’d take that deal, if it was offered and I was in Congress or something.:slight_smile:

You’ve got me confused with someone else again. I haven’t advocated for the elimination of any of those departments, although I think Education can go. EPA and FDA serve vital interests, although they need reform.

Unless you want to go back to at least pre-recession levels of spending, then you’re in favor of increased government. That is what the Obama budget calls for. If you don’t support the Obama budget then I made a mistake.

103

In light of the LIBOR interest fixing scandal and the fact that the same banking system has been in charge of the US dollar since 1933 the following interest calculation should shed some light on your question.
I pulled these numbers out of the air but the meaning is loud and clear. If the US government as well as we citizens have borrowed say just $1000 trillion total from the Federal banking system since '33 and they tweaked the interest rate say 5 one-hundreth of one percent (0.005%) here are the results:

Base amount: 1 quadrillion (1000 trillion)
Annual interest rate: % 0.005
Years: 80
Regular monthly deposit? 0
Increase deposits yearly no
With inflation? no
Interest calculated: monthly

Calculation results
(interest calculated monthly - added at the end of each month)
Year Year Interest Total Interest Total Sum
1 50,001,145,848.25 50,001,145,848.25 1,000,050,001,145,848.38 2 50,003,645,962.88 100,004,791,811.13 1,000,100,004,791,811.25
3 50,006,146,202.38 150,010,938,013.50 1,000,150,010,938,013.50 4 50,008,646,567.13 200,019,584,580.63 1,000,200,019,584,580.63
5 50,011,147,056.50 250,030,731,637.13 1,000,250,030,731,637.13 6 50,013,647,671.25 300,044,379,308.38 1,000,300,044,379,308.38
7 50,016,148,411.25 350,060,527,719.63 1,000,350,060,527,719.63 8 50,018,649,275.75 400,079,176,995.38 1,000,400,079,176,995.38
9 50,021,150,265.38 450,100,327,260.75 1,000,450,100,327,260.75 10 50,023,651,380.38 500,123,978,641.13 1,000,500,123,978,641.13
11 50,026,152,620.38 550,150,131,261.50 1,000,550,150,131,261.50 12 50,028,653,985.00 600,178,785,246.50 1,000,600,178,785,246.50
13 50,031,155,475.25 650,209,940,721.75 1,000,650,209,940,721.75 14 50,033,657,090.38 700,243,597,812.13 1,000,700,243,597,812.13
15 50,036,158,830.38 750,279,756,642.50 1,000,750,279,756,642.50 16 50,038,660,695.88 800,318,417,338.38 1,000,800,318,417,338.38
17 50,041,162,686.25 850,359,580,024.63 1,000,850,359,580,024.63 18 50,043,664,801.50 900,403,244,826.13 1,000,900,403,244,826.13
19 50,046,167,042.25 950,449,411,868.38 1,000,950,449,411,868.38 20 50,048,669,408.00 1,000,498,081,276.38 1,001,000,498,081,276.38
21 50,051,171,898.50 1,050,549,253,174.88 1,001,050,549,253,174.88 22 50,053,674,514.75 1,100,602,927,689.63 1,001,100,602,927,689.63
23 50,056,177,255.88 1,150,659,104,945.50 1,001,150,659,104,945.50 24 50,058,680,122.00 1,200,717,785,067.50 1,001,200,717,785,067.50
25 50,061,183,113.38 1,250,778,968,180.88 1,001,250,778,968,180.75 26 50,063,686,229.63 1,300,842,654,410.50 1,001,300,842,654,410.50
27 50,066,189,471.63 1,350,908,843,882.13 1,001,350,908,843,882.13 28 50,068,692,838.38 1,400,977,536,720.50 1,001,400,977,536,720.50
29 50,071,196,330.50 1,451,048,733,051.00 1,001,451,048,733,051.00 30 50,073,699,947.63 1,501,122,432,998.63 1,001,501,122,432,998.50
31 50,076,203,689.88 1,551,198,636,688.50 1,001,551,198,636,688.50 32 50,078,707,557.50 1,601,277,344,246.00 1,001,601,277,344,246.13
33 50,081,211,550.25 1,651,358,555,796.25 1,001,651,358,555,796.38 34 50,083,715,668.25 1,701,442,271,464.50 1,001,701,442,271,464.50
35 50,086,219,911.38 1,751,528,491,375.88 1,001,751,528,491,375.88 36 50,088,724,279.75 1,801,617,215,655.63 1,001,801,617,215,655.63
37 50,091,228,773.50 1,851,708,444,429.13 1,001,851,708,444,429.13 38 50,093,733,392.25 1,901,802,177,821.38 1,001,901,802,177,821.50
39 50,096,238,136.25 1,951,898,415,957.63 1,001,951,898,415,957.63 40 50,098,743,005.75 2,001,997,158,963.38 1,002,001,997,158,963.38
41 50,101,248,000.00 2,052,098,406,963.38 1,002,052,098,406,963.38 42 50,103,753,120.00 2,102,202,160,083.38 1,002,102,202,160,083.38
43 50,106,258,365.13 2,152,308,418,448.50 1,002,152,308,418,448.50 44 50,108,763,735.50 2,202,417,182,184.00 1,002,202,417,182,184.00
45 50,111,269,230.75 2,252,528,451,414.75 1,002,252,528,451,414.75 46 50,113,774,851.88 2,302,642,226,266.63 1,002,302,642,226,266.50
47 50,116,280,598.13 2,352,758,506,864.75 1,002,352,758,506,864.75 48 50,118,786,469.50 2,402,877,293,334.25 1,002,402,877,293,334.25
49 50,121,292,466.13 2,452,998,585,800.38 1,002,452,998,585,800.38 50 50,123,798,588.38 2,503,122,384,388.75 1,002,503,122,384,388.75
51 50,126,304,835.63 2,553,248,689,224.38 1,002,553,248,689,224.38 52 50,128,811,208.50 2,603,377,500,432.88 1,002,603,377,500,433.00
53 50,131,317,706.38 2,653,508,818,139.25 1,002,653,508,818,139.25 54 50,133,824,329.63 2,703,642,642,468.88 1,002,703,642,642,468.75
55 50,136,331,078.38 2,753,778,973,547.25 1,002,753,778,973,547.25 56 50,138,837,952.38 2,803,917,811,499.63 1,002,803,917,811,499.63
57 50,141,344,951.63 2,854,059,156,451.25 1,002,854,059,156,451.25 58 50,143,852,076.25 2,904,203,008,527.50 1,002,904,203,008,527.50
59 50,146,359,326.38 2,954,349,367,853.88 1,002,954,349,367,853.88 60 50,148,866,702.00 3,004,498,234,555.88 1,003,004,498,234,555.88
61 50,151,374,202.63 3,054,649,608,758.50 1,003,054,649,608,758.50 62 50,153,881,828.88 3,104,803,490,587.38 1,003,104,803,490,587.38
63 50,156,389,580.25 3,154,959,880,167.63 1,003,154,959,880,167.63 64 50,158,897,457.63 3,205,118,777,625.25 1,003,205,118,777,625.25
65 50,161,405,459.50 3,255,280,183,084.75 1,003,255,280,183,084.75 66 50,163,913,587.50 3,305,444,096,672.25 1,003,305,444,096,672.38
67 50,166,421,840.63 3,355,610,518,512.88 1,003,355,610,518,513.00 68 50,168,930,219.25 3,405,779,448,732.13 1,003,405,779,448,732.13
69 50,171,438,723.13 3,455,950,887,455.25 1,003,455,950,887,455.25 70 50,173,947,352.63 3,506,124,834,807.88 1,003,506,124,834,807.88
71 50,176,456,107.63 3,556,301,290,915.50 1,003,556,301,290,915.50 72 50,178,964,987.50 3,606,480,255,903.00 1,003,606,480,255,903.00
73 50,181,473,993.75 3,656,661,729,896.75 1,003,656,661,729,896.75 74 50,183,983,124.63 3,706,845,713,021.38 1,003,706,845,713,021.50
75 50,186,492,381.38 3,757,032,205,402.75 1,003,757,032,205,402.75 76 50,189,001,763.50 3,807,221,207,166.25 1,003,807,221,207,166.25
77 50,191,511,271.13 3,857,412,718,437.38 1,003,857,412,718,437.50 78 50,194,020,904.13 3,907,606,739,341.50 1,003,907,606,739,341.50
79 50,196,530,662.75 3,957,803,270,004.25 1,003,957,803,270,004.38 80 50,199,040,546.88 4,008,002,310,551.13 1,004,008,002,310,551.25

That’s $4trillion, $8billion, $2million, $310thousand, $551 dollars and thirteen cents which equates to over $11,000 for every man, woman and child in the US. That little bit of money would do little to curb poverty and sickness so we don’t worry about it, right? Besides, we all know that the US government along with all US citizens haven’t borrowed nearly that much, right? Of course we don’t have to worry about that anyway because the bankers and the government protecting them are as pure as the driven snow…

chappy

104

Let’s forget about the total you assume was borrowed, since you invented it, and look at the methodology, assuming this number is correct.
First, not all of it got borrowed in 1933. It got borrowed over time.
Second, you assume none of it got paid back. Wrong. For instance, the large borrowed to pay for WW II got paid back during the 1950s.
Third, you don’t account for inflation. Given the low interest rate you assume, the government made money since the amount they’d have to pay back today, given inflation, is far less than they borrowed. This isn’t irrelevant - interest rates on federal debt today are so low that the government is practically borrowing the money for free.
Fourth, you neglect that the interest is mostly paid to ourselves. You must never have ad savings bonds as a kid. That interest came to us.

So, what’s your point again, besides showing you can input numbers into an interest rate calculator without understanding what is coming out? If you compound monthly, you can do the same thing on any spreadsheet, by the way.

105

It’s about interest rate fixing. LIBOR. Raise the interest rate on 30 million borrowers and the federal government by not 0.005% but by 0.5 or even 1 point and where does it go? If you think the interest paid to the Federal Reserve goes back to the people of the US you are mistaken. It is a private corporation, owned by foreigners and it’s they and those who work for them who reap the profit. The United States and it’s citizens have borrowed trillions of trillions since 1933. The chart was only a demonstration of how much money is involved when only five one-hundreth of a percent is used. Raise that by 20 or 30% and the numbers are staggering. All I’m saying is that you have been robbed. Your ancestors were robbed. We all have been robbed. It’s a ponzi scheme of epic proportions. Anyone who doesn’t understand this please read the book The Creature from Jekyll Island by Edward Griffin or watch the documentary.

chappy

106

Whatever are you talking about? LIBOR has absolutely nothing to do with interest rates on federal funds. Banks borrow from the Fed, the government does not. The government borrows from us. (And the Chinese.)
And please give a cite (preferably one without a tinfoil hat) about foreigners owning the Fed. I’m not watching movies, no time, so I’m sure you can find one on the web somewhere. I doubt it will be from anyone sane.
No dispute that the US has borrowed (and repaid) trillions of bucks. A trillion here, a trillion there, pretty soon it adds up. If you think four trillion in interest on a thousand trillion of debt is a lot you need to think bigger.

About the only correct thing you said is that my ancestors were robbed. They were Jews living under the tsar. They were robbed and worse, no doubt. Once they got here, not so much.
Have you ever read a legitimate book on how the economic system works? It is not apparent from any of your posts.

107

Who do you think the government borrows from voyager, just the Chinese or our citizens? What do you think LIBOR is exactly?

Who do you think owns the Fed? If you think it’s the US government or that the government has control or oversight over the Fed you’re sadly mistaken. All of the western governments central banks are tied together and owned by various shadowy figures throughout the world. Who do you think we bailed out with trillions of tax dollars in 2008, 2010 and guess whose begging for another bailout?

Have you read Griffin’s book about Jekyll Island? Seriously, do yourself a favor and read the book or watch the documentary online. It’s free.