# Are the Romani criminals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459 "2005-07-21T13:30:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/1 "2005-07-21T13:30:29Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6390258#post6390258) I posted the following tangent: > [@](#): > > Funny thing I noticed in Spain while there on vacation this year: despite the fact that almost all the Romani were killed off during the Holocaust, tour guides persisted in explaining away beggars and beggar scams (distractions while purses are stolen, etc.) as the work of “Gypsies” from elsewhere. Still pc to prejudiced about them, I guess. And received the following reply: > [@](#): > > And I told exactly the same thing to an american tourist I met some months ago. If the situation in Spain is similar to the situation in Paris, a significant part of the petty street crime, scams and begging (more specifically children beggars or “mothers” begging with small kids) is indeed the province of “gypsies from elsewhere”, more precisely currently illegal immigrants gangs coming mostly from Romania (which has a large gypsy minority, something like two millions if I’m not mistaken, out of maybe 5 millions living in central Europe) living for a part in subburban slums. > Now, you’re free to think I’m an ugly racist for making such a statement, but there are communities that generate criminals of a specific kind. Now I admit my surprise at the size of the current Romani population. I had believed that they were actually almost all killed by the Germans. But I still believe that the Romani are the victims of medai stereotyping, systematic marginalization, and that comments like that would be held as intolerable if made about almost any other social group in Europe. Any thoughts or facts to contribute? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/2 "2005-07-21T15:16:43Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But I still believe that the Romani are the victims of medai stereotyping, systematic marginalization, and that comments like that would be held as intolerable if made about almost any other social group in Europe. > > Any thoughts or facts to contribute? My thought on the matter is: What is the debate? True, they are real, (you can hardly wipe out a race of people stretched o’ower the earth) and they are stereotyped. What do you expect when mothers threaten to sell their children to them, if the tykes don’t eat their peas? However, there are stereotypes about most races which are honestly believed to be true. That seems more GQ then GD. Also, as to why it is permitted, I would have to say because they are mobile. If you live in a London flat, and are gay, then you are likely to be offended if you hear a show making a gay joke. You will then try and change things. Gypsies tend to move, and thus don’t have a home base from which to protest, unlike the chap’s flat. I suppose they could hire a lawyer, but the impression I get is that they dont care what people say about them. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/3 "2005-07-21T15:54:20Z")
Yes. I’m glad **Kal** isn’t around any more. Since he is Romani, I’m sure he’d have a few choice things to contribute. As I understand it, the Romani or gypsies are no more criminally inclined than any other ethnic group, especially one which has been systematically marginalized. In other words, the notion that Romani are thieves is about as legitimate as the notion that blacks are lazy and about as insulting to them. I’ll see if I can dig up some more information. CJ ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/4 "2005-07-21T15:59:46Z")
Some quick comments : 1)Your title is misrepresenting my statements. I didn’t claim that “roms are criminals” but that a particular kind of crime (and 'm including the exploitation of children for begging in my definition of crime) in a particular place is the province of a particular subset of the Rom population. The number of romanian street urchins (beggars, pickpockets, meter robbers…and even in some ases child prostitution) in Paris is estimated around 200-300. 1. My statement isn’t anymore unnaceptable than stating for instance that the mafia in such or such place at such or such place was mostly in the hands of italian immigrants. 3)I was wrong. I searched around and though this petty crime is apparently still in the hands of Roms in cities like Lyons and Marseilles, it’s not the case anymore in Paris, where they’ve apparently been supplanted by non-gypsies coming from a specific area in north-western Romania. However, the romani slums I was refering to apparently still provides a number of beggars (as i already mentionned, these beggars are women and children. I wouldn’t know about men that I couldn’t tell apart anyway). 4)We’re talking about a peculiar kind of immigrants. Besides cultural factors that might prevent them from “settling down”, the can’t rely, contrarily to other kind of illegal immigrants, to an existing established community, to help them “upgrading” to a pleasant life including underpaid under the table jobs and sleeping with ten other guys in an overpriced 30 square meters “flat”. Immigrants from central europe are a rather recent phenomenon, non-rom romanians generally speaking don’t wan’t to have anything to do with them, and I don’t think they receive much support from the french Roms (Roms used as a generic term, since french roms actually aren’t Roms strictly speaking), either. Finally, contrarily to usual illegal immigrants, they generally come in whole families rather than as individual adult males, which certainly doesn’t simplify the issue. Also, when I’m refering to “slums”, I really mean slums. Third-world style. No water, no toilets, rats running around, etc… and the whole thing being wrecked down from time to time by the authorities. 5)I searched around for the official positions about these issues of tzigane organizations, and found out that their main association headquarters, study and documentation center was situated a couple street away from home. So, I might pay them a visit in the coming day to inquire. 6)Since your OP is more general than my comment about beggars in Paris, I would mention that the criminality rate amongst nomadic gypsies (only around 1/3 of the french gypsies still follow this lifestyle) is much higher than in the general population. read figures as high as 30 times higher. However, since there aren’t any official figures (french law prevent authorities from establishing ethnicity-based statistics), they’re as likely to come from serious sociological studies than to have been made out of thin air. By the way, the french gypsy population is about half a million people, I believe. I don’t know if it includes illegal immigrants or only french citizens. I don’t know either who exactly is included. For instance, one of my friend is part gypsy but never had any connection with this community, except for his father who disapeared from his life in quick order. So, would someone like him be included in this figure, I don’t know. In any case, it can only be a rough estimate, since, as I mentionned above, no official statistics exist. Also, it seems around half a million of them have been killed during the holocaust. I’ve no clue about the population figures at this time, but on the basis of the current ones, I would assume that a much smaller part of the Rom population than of the jewish population has been murdered during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/5 "2005-07-23T23:06:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Now I admit my surprise at the size of the current Romani population. I had believed that they were actually almost all killed by the Germans. But I still believe that the Romani are the victims of medai stereotyping, systematic marginalization, and that comments like that would be held as intolerable if made about almost any other social group in Europe. Wow. You have some interesting ideas about the Holocaust. Interesting, as in deeply historically misinformed. I am not an expert, but I figure this much should be relatively common knowledge: A. No Nazi ethnic purges in Spain. Period. Franco was not a vassal of Hitler. B. Lots of Tzigane (Gypsies) as a hated ethnic minority in Romania today. C. Gypsies, being nomadic, & breeding like, well, Gypsies, have presumably managed both to make up for whatever population losses they suffered in the 1940’s, & reëstablish themselves anywhere they want. [snide]Gee, I wonder if you know about the number of Jews (who Hitler hated more) that survive today, or do you believe that Israel has a population somewhere south of 100 000?[/snide] Hitler just wasn’t that successful at genocide, & the Gypsies weren’t his chief hated enemies like the Communists & the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/6 "2005-07-23T23:21:17Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > 5)I searched around for the official positions about these issues of tzigane organizations, and found out that their main association headquarters, study and documentation center was situated a couple street away from home. So, I might pay them a visit in the coming day to inquire. > . Atually, I won’t pay them a visit, because it’s only possible by appointment, at unconvenient hours and upon paying a yearly fee. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/7 "2005-07-25T19:34:57Z")
Clair, sorry if I misrepresented your position. Fools, Well excuuuuuse me. I readily admit to my ignorance. I did not know how dispersed the Romani were and are. No snideness here- I find your “& breeding like, well, Gypsies …” offensive. Any more would move this to The Pit. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/8 "2005-07-25T20:24:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Fools, Well excuuuuuse me. I readily admit to my ignorance. I did not know how dispersed the Romani were and are. > . And they’re very much dispersed, indeed. For instance I learnt last year that there was a community living in Israel (and not recent immigrants, but people who have been there for a very long time). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/9 "2005-07-25T21:20:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Some quick comments : > > 1)Your title is misrepresenting my statements. I didn’t claim that “roms are criminals” but that a particular kind of crime (and 'm including the exploitation of children for begging in my definition of crime) in a particular place is the province of a particular subset of the Rom population. The number of romanian street urchins (beggars, pickpockets, meter robbers…and even in some ases child prostitution) in Paris is estimated around 200-300. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that the Roma are Romanian. Perhaps it’s gotten so that anyone who looks shady is labelled a “gypsy?” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/10 "2005-07-26T01:07:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that the Roma are Romanian. No, but a lot of them are from the Hungarian/Romanian area. It never ceased to amaze me how openly racist intelligent and fairly liberal people were in Budapest when it came to issues about the Roma. Anytime I tried to chime in with a parallel about blacks and marginalization/poverty/racism in the U.S., every single time I was stopped with, “But you don’t understand. You can’t understand. The Roma. They’re _different_. They’re not like blacks. They don’t want to change.” :rolleyes: How do you argue with that? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/11 "2005-07-26T05:10:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that the Roma are Romanian. > > Perhaps it’s gotten so that anyone who looks shady is labelled a “gypsy?” I didn’t mistake Roms for Romanians. Roms are gypsies from central europe. The people I was refering to are both Roms _and_ Romanians. As for you putting gypsies between bracket, I’m sorry, but I can’t keep up with the current american PC terminology. Romani is a shortening of the most derogatory term used in france to refer to them. The french equivalent to “gypsies” isn’t derogatory and refers to people who used to live in Spain. The french PC term would be translated by “travellers” in english, hence wouldn’t ring any bell on this board. Tziganes is sometimes used over here to refer to the whole group, and sometimes not. As a result of this mess, I used in my posts either roms (that can also refers to the whole group or for only a part of it) and gypsis as generic terms. Concerning “everyone who looks shaddy” : I mentionned previously that I was mistaken about the street urchins, since the (insert word of your choice here) gangs that used them have apparently been superceded by non- (word of your choice) gangs also from Romania, at least in Paris. Concerning the shaddy appearance, the female (word of your choice) from central europe usually seen dragging their kids around, besides their usual skin complexion and language, wear a distinctive attire that won’t be worn by a random french shaddy character. Of course, for all I know, they could be non- (word of your choice) Bulgarians wearing their usual countryside attire. However, the general concern about the Romanian (word of your choice) illegal immigrants living in slums in the Paris area and their activities let me assume that they actually are Romanian (word of your choice). Comments about said concerns from a site that appears to be a (word of your choice) site since it displays their wheeled flag : > [@](#): > > (Mars 2005) Le Bourget/Friche d’Alstom 200 Roms ont construit un vrai bidonville > > DEPUIS quelques jours seulement, les marteaux ont cessé de frapper et le petit village fait de bric et de broc a stoppé son expansion. En l’espace d’une semaine, la friche d’Alstom, située en plein centre-ville du Bourget, a vu pousser un authentique bidonville où vivent aujourd’hui 200 Roms. > […] > Une partie des habitants du camp vient donc directement de l’Est de l’Europe, les autres ont été expulsés d’un campement à Sarcelles (Val-d’Oise). Alentour, chacun vaque à ses occupations. Avec grand fracas, un ancien fabrique un poêle à bois. Des femmes, coiffées de nattes et habillées de longues jupes, papotent devant chez elles. > [@](#): > > LA TENSION MONTE autour des bidonvilles roumains du Val-de-Marne. Implantés depuis de nombreux mois sur les communes de Choisy, Vitry et d’Orly, au sud de Paris, ces camps de fortune, qui réunissent au total près d’un millier d’occupants, prennent de plus en plus des allures de cloaques insalubres doublés de véritables plaques tournantes de trafics en tous genres, à quelques kilomètres de Paris. Après avoir, en vain, tenté d’attirer l’attention sur le problème, le maire communiste de Choisy-le-Roi, Daniel Davisse, vient d’écrire au ministre de l’Intérieur, Nicolas Sarkozy, pour réclamer des solutions de toute urgence. > > Car il y a véritablement urgence. > > Alors que les caravanes du début sont devenues des baraquements dignes des pires favelas sud-américaines, les familles initialement présentes, dont certaines faisaient office d’interlocuteurs avec les autorités, ont peu à peu cédé la place à de véritables mafias. I let the translation up to you, given the late (actually early) hour. Basically they describe the awful living conditions in these slums and them becoming the center of various criminal activities, ranging from theft to child prostitution. They also (surprise!) refer to the people living here both as Romanians and as Roms. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/12 "2005-07-26T05:31:30Z")
By the way, I noticed that the same site gives a estimate (from the Council of Europe) of their population in Europe. According to the site, it would be betwen 7 and 9 millions, with five countries where they make up more than 5% of the overall population : Romania (between 1.2 and 2.5 millions) , Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/13 "2005-07-26T14:36:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I didn’t mistake Roms for Romanians. Roms are gypsies from central europe. The people I was refering to are both Roms _and_ Romanians. How are they both Roma and Romanian? Are the Roma who recently came to France from Romania? So far as I understand, Roma/Gypsy is a separate ethnic group from Romanian/Vlach/Romance-speaking Slavs. > [@](#): > > As for you putting gypsies between bracket, I’m sorry, but I can’t keep up with the current american PC terminology. If you’re referring to **Guin** statement: > [@](#): > > Perhaps it’s gotten so that anyone who looks shady is labelled a “gypsy?” I don’t think it has anything to do with “current American p.c. terminology.” Guin put “gypsy” in quotes for the same reason I just did, because she’s using “gypsy” for the _word_ “gypsy” and not for its meaning. And I believe she’s under the same assumption that I am that Roma/Gypsy is a specific ethnic group. > [@](#): > > The french PC term would be translated by “travellers” in english, hence wouldn’t ring any bell on this board. “Traveller” is commonly used in English to refer to non-Roma Gypsies, such as the “Irish Travellers” (Pikies) in England and the United States. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/14 "2005-07-26T14:47:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > How are they both Roma and Romanian? Are the Roma who recently came to France from Romania? So far as I understand, Roma/Gypsy is a separate ethnic group from Romanian/Vlach/Romance-speaking Slavs. Ethnicity and nationality are two different things - Roma is the former, Romanian the latter. > [@](#): > > “Traveller” is commonly used in English to refer to non-Roma Gypsies, such as the “Irish Travellers” (Pikies) in England and the United States. PC terminology in the UK: - Gypsy is capitalised - ‘Traveller communities’ is the term favoured to cover Roma, Irish travellers, and all other groups - In legal situations, ‘Gypsy’ covers all traveller communities and ethnicities. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/15 "2005-07-26T15:37:43Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Ethnicity and nationality are two different things - Roma is the former, Romanian the latter. That’s what I was trying to get at. **Clairobscur** ’s post wasn’t clear on this point. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/16 "2005-07-26T16:08:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That’s what I was trying to get at. **Clairobscur** ’s post wasn’t clear on this point. Actually, I don’t think it’s quite as simple as that. There are ethnic Roma AND ethnic Romanians. Most (but by no means all) of the latter live in the state of Romania, which coincidentally has a bit of a negative outlook on those citizens of a non-Romanian ethnic persuasion. Welcome to Europe, bringing you ethnic conflict since before history began :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/17 "2005-07-26T16:49:13Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > How are they both Roma and Romanian? Are the Roma who recently came to France from Romania? Precisely, yes. Actually not only from Romania (though in majority due to demographics) but also from various other central european countries (in particular, at some point, from Yugoslavia). However the current issue mostly involves Romanian groups. > [@](#): > > So far as I understand, Roma/Gypsy is a separate ethnic group from Romanian/Vlach/Romance-speaking Slavs. Yes. But they can nevertheless be Romanian citizens. Besides, there are a number of sub-groups. The gypsies who have been traditionnally living in France are Sintis or Manouches, not Roms. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it has anything to do with “current American p.c. terminology.” Guin put “gypsy” in quotes for the same reason I just did, because she’s using “gypsy” for the _word_ “gypsy” and not for its meaning. And I believe she’s under the same assumption that I am that Roma/Gypsy is a specific ethnic group. Maybe I misunderstood her intent, then. > [@](#): > > “Traveller” is commonly used in English to refer to non-Roma Gypsies, such as the “Irish Travellers” (Pikies) in England and the United States. I heard about that (though only regarding the british isles, I wasn’t aware of it being the case in the USA). But this phenomenon doesn’t exist in France. And the french term “gens du voyage” (travelling people) specifically refers to gypsies, as far a I can tell including also the majority that doesn’t have a nomadic lifestyle anymore. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/18 "2005-07-26T17:05:19Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Besides, there are a number of sub-groups. The gypsies who have been traditionnally living in France are Sintis or Manouches, not Roms. Just in case it wouldn’t be clear, once again due to termiology issues. I wasn’t using “Roms” here as a generic term but as the name of a sub-group. Sintis and Roms (for instances) are both Gypsies (or whatever generic term you’re accustomed to). They have the same origin. They just are sub-groups that diverged after centuries of separation (contrarily to say, the irish “travellers” you were refering to, who never had anything to do with gypsies, and don’t belong to this ethnic group, if I understand correctly). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/19 "2005-07-26T17:05:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Precisely, yes. Actually not only from Romania (though in majority due to demographics) but also from various other central european countries (in particular, at some point, from Yugoslavia). However the current issue mostly involves Romanian groups. Ah, so they’re Romanian Roma. But what about the term _Romani_ as you used it? I know it only as the Latin plural of Romanus. _Romani ite domum_. > [@](#): > > Besides, there are a number of sub-groups. The gypsies who have been traditionnally living in France are Sintis or Manouches, not Roms. So are they all considered Roma or not? Is “Gypsy” the only umbrella term for them? > [@](#): > > I heard about that (though only regarding the british isles, I wasn’t aware of it being the case in the USA). Most Americans didn’t know about them either, until that Madelyne Toogood incident a few years ago, in which she was videotaped by a security camera savagely beating her daughter about the head. Apparently in the United States, Travellers are stereotyped as shoplifters and handyman-scammers. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459/20 "2005-07-26T17:21:28Z")
the "gypsies in Israel are the Domari (I think, either that or a name begining with L, I’ve forgotten what Kal has told me in previous convversations). As for the holocaust, there was a higher percentage of Roma and Sinti killed than there was Jewish. that’s not to take away anything from the suffering of Jewish people, but when your looking at 500,000 from what was then an estimated population of around 1.5 million it’s pretty significant. I’m not 100% on my figures, but it is representative. the Nazi’s set up a specific bureau for “the treatment of the problem of the Gypsy Menace” almost it’s exact title, which didn’t close down until 1972. the Irish Travellers self identify as “Pavee”, not pikeys. They speak Shelta, and have no cultural ties with the Rom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-romani-criminals/313459.md?page=2)