# Are the Seabees and other Construction Battalions up to the task of building a border wall? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 10, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537 "2019-01-10T16:15:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/1 "2019-01-10T16:15:12Z")
For this thread, please accept the premise that Trump declares a National Emergency and the military is ordered to begin construction of a border wall. CNN has explained how the funding will work. DOD estimates 2.5 billion is readily available under Title 10. I remember from history classes that the Seabees and other Allied construction battalions did amazing work in WWII. The British and US constructed Mulberry Harbours to support the D Day landing. They bridged the Rhine for the invasion of Germany. Absolutely legendary achievements to support the war. Many of these men were professional tradesmen that joined the military to work in construction. I know the construction battalions built bases in Afghanistan and Iraq. But how much civilian contracting do they rely on? What kind of talent and resources do the construction battalions currently have? That makes a difference in cost and efficiency in building a border wall. Imho I think they can build the wall significantly better and cheaper than civilian contractors looking to make a juicy profit off the government. The construction battalions won’t be cutting corners to save a buck. Do you think the current construction battalions are ready for the challenge of a 1000 mile border wall? Can they build it significantly cheaper? [https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/08/politics/trump-raid-pentagon-for-border-wall/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F](https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/01/08/politics/trump-raid-pentagon-for-border-wall/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F) > [@](#): > > If Trump does declare a national emergency, he would have access to a pool of money inside the Department of Defense. Under Title 10 of the US Code, Trump could use funds “that have not been obligated” within the Defense Department’s budget. > > The law states that in the event of a declaration of war or national emergency, “the Secretary of Defense, without regard to any other provision of law, may undertake military construction projects, and may authorize the Secretaries of the military departments to undertake military construction projects, not otherwise authorized by law that are necessary to support such use of the armed forces.” > \ > Defense Department officials told CNN that the Pentagon is planning a figure of about $2.5 billion in funds they believe they can tap to support construction of a border wall if Trump declares an emergency and orders the military to build a wall. Those funds fall under the “unobligated” pool. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/2 "2019-01-10T16:25:53Z")
Ex military and current military posters… Are you familiar with the construction battalions? What level of experienced tradesmen and equipment do they have? Do they rely heavily on outside civilian contractors? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/3 "2019-01-10T16:52:49Z")
I found this information about the current Seabees. Sounds impressive but the work on repairs at Tyndall AFB (hurricane Michael) are projected to take 5 years? 😕 I know the Navy doesn’t work for our flyboys. 😉 But where are the Air Force construction battalions? > **[Air Force begins work on Tyndall AFB rebuild with PMO](https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1720969/air-force-begins-work-on-tyndall-afb-rebuild-with-pmo/)** > > Following Hurricane Michael, the Air Force Installation and Mission Support Center and its partners established a program management office at Tyndall Air Force Base, Florida, to lead redevelopment [https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/enlisted/detailing/seabees/Pages/default2.aspx](https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/enlisted/detailing/seabees/Pages/default2.aspx) > [@](#): > > The Seabee detailers are responsible for management and detailing enlisted Seabees from E1-E9 in 7 construction ratings. Major operational units include 6 Naval Mobile Construction Battalions (NMCB), 2 Amphibious Construction Battalion (ACB), and 2 Underwater Construction Teams (UCT) . Seabees have shore duty at stations throughout the Navy providing their construction skills to maintain the shore infrastructure. Seabees also support Camp David, State Department, and DEVGRU. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/4 "2019-01-10T17:04:37Z")
You can stop looking. The Air Force doesn’t have battalions of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/5 "2019-01-10T17:20:26Z")
I know. They’re AFCON wings. The 19th Airlift Wing is stationed at LRAFB near my mom’s house in Jacksonville AR. My dad was First Sergeant in squadron for three years before he retired. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/6 "2019-01-10T17:22:41Z")
US Army Corps of Engineers would be tasked with the project. They are already helping DHS anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/7 "2019-01-10T17:27:50Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > US Army Corps of Engineers would be tasked with the project. They are already helping DHS anyway. Ok, we just doubled the cost right there. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/8 "2019-01-10T17:38:05Z")
They’re not really set up to be cost-efficient or used for this scale of project. the Army Corps of Engineers is, but they’re mostly used to dealing with civilians on things like flood control, etc… The actual construction soldiers are integrated into the various Marine/Army units, and in large part are mostly concerned with blowing stuff up more than building it. The Navy and Air Force units are more geared toward building the infrastructure needed to support a modern military- they would be able to build a wall, but there just aren’t that many of them to build it in any kind of reasonable time frame without likely causing serious issues with readiness and/or training. The smart way to do it (not that Trump would do this) would be to rotate the battalions in/out as deployments for a few months - if done right, it could be valuable training. Plus, I suspect that the military pays their Seabees and Red Horse (USAF heavy construction) troops a whole lot more than civilian construction companies will be paying their Mexican laborers. So I’m saying it’ll cost more and take longer by having the military do it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/9 "2019-01-10T17:38:59Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > Ok, we just doubled the cost right there. And doubled the Time. AFAIK The Corps still hasn’t finished reinforcing the levees around New Orleans. They were heavily damaged in 2005 after Katrina. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/10 "2019-01-10T17:45:30Z")
> [@bump](#): > > They’re not really set up to be cost-efficient or used for this scale of project. the Army Corps of Engineers is, but they’re mostly used to dealing with civilians on things like flood control, etc… The actual construction soldiers are integrated into the various Marine/Army units, and in large part are mostly concerned with blowing stuff up more than building it. > > The Navy and Air Force units are more geared toward building the infrastructure needed to support a modern military- they would be able to build a wall, but there just aren’t that many of them to build it in any kind of reasonable time frame without likely causing serious issues with readiness and/or training. The smart way to do it (not that Trump would do this) would be to rotate the battalions in/out as deployments for a few months - if done right, it could be valuable training. > > Plus, I suspect that the military pays their Seabees and Red Horse (USAF heavy construction) troops a whole lot more than civilian construction companies will be paying their Mexican laborers. > > So I’m saying it’ll cost more and take longer by having the military do it. I agree a border wall could be a great training exercise for the soldiers in the construction battalions. It’s hard to say if the DOD will factor that into the mission. Or if they’ll just dump this project on the Corps of Engineers. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/11 "2019-01-10T17:52:23Z")
The Army Corps contracts the work, which means huge labor costs and also overruns because of change orders. As a retired Seabee, I can tell you that they are more than capable of erecting any sort of wall you care to design. The Seabees have all necessary trades, tools and equipment for the work, are commanded by engineers (the Civil Engineer Corps), are fully equipped for extended bivouac, and do not use civilian manpower, which is a huge savings. The only issue would be that, as with overseas work, the battalions would rotate in and out until the work was completed. In other words, it would be treated as just another deployment rotation. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/12 "2019-01-10T17:56:46Z")
hi Chefguy I was hoping you’d weigh in. 😉 I knew you’d have first hand information. I’d definitely prefer seeing the Seabees take this on. I have family in Louisiana and the Corps work there has seen significant delays and overruns. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/13 "2019-01-10T18:03:14Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > You can stop looking. The Air Force doesn’t have battalions of any kind. The US Air Force has the [Rapid Engineer Deployable Heavy Operational Repair Squadron Engineer](http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2003/February%202003/0203redhorse.aspx) squadrons (RED HORSE) which perform heavy construction operations, primarily building airfields and temporary advance bases. From the article: \*With an estimated $100 million worth of projects under way at the end of 2002, RED HORSE squadrons are the leading edge of one of the largest military construction programs since Vietnam. “These are awesome accomplishments,” said Col. Fred Wieners, director of Task Force Enduring Look, an Air Force effort to document lessons learned in the war against terrorism. “What other country could go halfway around the world and do that?” Consider the scale of the ramp project—the biggest single job a RED HORSE unit has ever undertaken. In this venture, Air Force engineers from the 820th and 823rd RED HORSE units spent five months transforming a scrub-and-sand Gulf desert site into a paved airfield the size of about 20 combined football fields.\* The US Navy of course has the [United States Naval Construction Battalions](http://usnhistory.navylive.dodlive.mil/2017/03/03/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-your-seabees/), also known as SEABEES. They build marine structures and land bases, doing much of the actual construction in Viet Nam, a lot in the Gulf Wars and Afghanistan, as well as supporting construction and maintenance on US bases and that of allied nations around the globe. However, the major construction force capabiltiy is the [US Army Corps of Engineers](https://www.usace.army.mil/Recreation-Passes/) which: [[ul]Is the Nation’s number one federal provider of outdoor recreation. Is the Nation’s environmental engineer. Owns and operates more than 600 dams. Operates and maintains 12,000 miles of commercial inland navigation channels. Dredges more than 200 million cubic yards of construction and maintenance dredge material annually. Maintains 926 coastal, Great Lakes and inland harbors. Restores, creates, enhances or preserves tens of thousands of acres of wetlands annually under the Corps’ Regulatory Program. Provides a total water supply storage capacity of 329.2 million acre-feet in major Corps lakes. Owns and operates 24 percent of the U.S. hydropower capacity or 3 percent of the total U.S. electric capacity. Supports Army and Air Force installations. Provides technical and construction support to more than 100 countries. Manages an Army military construction program between 2006 and 2013 totaling approximately $44.6 billion — the largest construction effort since World War II. Researches and develops technologies to protect the nation’s environment and enhance quality of life.[/ul]](https://www.usace.army.mil/Missions/) A large ‘civil structure’ like ‘Wall’ is precisely the thing the Corps of Engineers was intended to construct and maintain (although it would be expected that major construction contractors would do the bulk of the actual concrete pouring and bolt turning). However, the Corps of Engineers is pretty much maxed out in terms of the massive number of public works it maintains. Adding ‘Wall’ to their list of existing projects would over task the Corps and result in deficiencies in maintenance and oversight over many of the critical civil infrastructure such as the many dams or the [Mississippi River Project](https://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Missions/Recreation/Mississippi-River-Project/) that keeps the Mississippi river navigable and controls flooding. And given that there is no factual pressing need for ‘Wall’ other than to feed the ego of Donald Trump and persuade his mob of supporters that he is doing ‘something’ besides playing golf and twittering out counterfactual information and wholly baseless conspiracy theories, this would be a horrible tradeoff. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/14 "2019-01-10T18:21:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I agree a border wall could be a great training exercise for the soldiers in the construction battalions. It’s hard to say if the DOD will factor that into the mission. > > Or if they’ll just dump this project on the Corps of Engineers. Building ‘Wall’ would be a pointless exercise in political idiocy which provides little practical ‘training’ for anyone. There are some significant challenges in building a structure along many stretches of the US-Mexico border where the Rio Grande meanders, but the major problem will be the legal and political challenges of grabbing private land via a questionable eminent domain claim, cutting off US-owned land out of practical necessity, and resolving disputes over what is US and what is Mexican territory, all for the purpose of building ‘Wall’ that is not actually going to accomplish anything in terms of abating illegal immigration which is already on a downturn. If there is some desire to expend public monies to ‘train’ the various DoD construction forces, we have a vast amount of decaying civil infrastructure in need of inspection, maintenance, and replacement, to the tune of costs that are estimated to exceed US$1T. I don’t think this is the best use of these construction forces’ efforts, since they already have a training budget and activities which are devoted to the specific kinds of missions and projects that they work, but it still makes more sense than building ‘Wall’, which is basically a sketch pitch rejected by Monty Python for being too silly. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/15 "2019-01-10T18:30:17Z")
RED HORSE I like that acronym. 😉 They’re probably repairing Tyndall AFB. Hurricane Michael tore it to shreds in Oct. I guess there’s a certain amount of pride in the US history of construction. A lot of big projects have been completed over the years. The infrastructure our grandparents and great-grandparents built is decaying and needs repair or replacement. They’ll be a lot of construction in the next few decades. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/16 "2019-01-10T18:45:04Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > RED HORSE I like that acronym. 😉 They’re probably repairing Tyndall AFB. Hurricane Michael tore it to shreds in Oct. > > I guess there’s a certain amount of pride in the US history of construction. A lot of big projects have been completed over the years. > > A lot of the infrastructure our grandparents and great-grandparents built is decaying and needs repair. They’ll be a lot of construction in the next few decades. Hopefully Red Horse has improved since I was in, as they were pretty much considered a joke at that point. The fly in the ointment for using service members to build anything in the US is that it takes away jobs. Labor unions and contractors would rightly be angered at the unfairness of the competition and loss of income, which is why outfits like the Seabees are rarely used at home, even on military bases. There have been exceptions, such as hurricane cleanup, etc., but it’s been rare. So when Trump says he would use the military, he’s likely only referring to the COE, which uses civilian contractors for all their work. Having worked for them in the past, I can tell you that their contractors are experts at using weasel words in their contracts, and milking the government for all they can get. A typical ploy for contractors is to provide a list of personnel in their bid who have top qualifications, then to hire much cheaper and marginally qualified personnel to actually run the project. Quite often, the people who they are listing in the bid don’t even work for the company any longer. And don’t get me started on change orders. If it’s not spelled out exactly in the contract, it becomes a very expensive add-on, and can even become grounds for delay claims by the contractor. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/17 "2019-01-10T18:55:47Z")
I worked construction in college. I saw some shady work on a few jobs. The companies hired inexperienced people and used cheap materials to save $$$$. It’s good to learn what construction capabilities the DoD can use if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/18 "2019-01-10T19:17:22Z")
According to this [USA Today](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/10/shutdown-pentagon-confirms-its-preparing-build-border-wall/2536908002/) story, the walls would be designed by the US Army Corps of Engineers but then subcontracted out to (I assume) civilian parties. > [@](#): > > The Pentagon is preparing options to build barriers on the southern border in the event that President Donald Trump declares a national emergency there, the latest indication such a move is gaining traction within the administration. > […] > Trump’s declaration of an emergency at the southern border would allow the Army Corps of Engineers to design barriers and let contracts to build them. > […] > Those funds would come from the Pentagon’s budget for construction projects approved by Congress but not yet spent. > […] > The Army Corps of Engineers would likely be tasked with the project, Thornberry said. The corps would design the barriers and contract with construction firms to build it. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/19 "2019-01-10T19:54:47Z")
Private Contractors are the most expensive option. ☹ But that’s our government for you. Everything costs 5 times as much on gov contracts. If the country is forced to build this white elephant, it should be done as efficiently and structurally sound as possible. We don’t want a crumbling mess 30 years from now that our grandkids have to fix. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537/20 "2019-01-10T20:01:46Z")
I went yes and at about the same cost. Don’t know about the current situation but in the past both Federal and state guard/reserves were always looking for projects that would meet the training and readiness requirements. Our one conservation group got them (reservists) a couple times and Army Corp help in planning. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-the-seabees-and-other-construction-battalions-up-to-the-task-of-building-a-border-wall/827537.md?page=2)