# Are there 20th century examples of dictators who were good leaders and better than elected polticos? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807 "2013-11-01T01:15:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/101 "2013-11-02T23:19:38Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I find the notion of government “legitimacy” rather silly and useless. I, and I believe most people, want a government that works not a government which is “legitimate”. Why should I accept any government that has no popular legitimacy? Who gets to decides if it works well enough? Call me crazy, or a fundamentalist republican if you wish, but anybody who seizes power without the people’s assent needs to be kicked out pronto, regardless of whether or not you find it works well enough. How could a government without legitimacy have any authority over me and my fellows citizens? Apart from using brute force, jailing, torture and execution, I mean. Why on earth should I care the slighest bit about this government decisions, laws, regulations, statements or whatnot? No legitimacy means exactly that : whatever this government orders, it has as much value as the ramblings of any random individual. Only force allow this particular individual over here to rule rather than this other one over there. It’s just a matter of who holds the larger stick. I’ll take the dysfunctional separatist democratic government over the efficient benevolent dictatorship every day and twice on sunday. ---
**Author:** ![bita\_malt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@bita\_malt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bita_malt)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/102 "2013-11-02T23:24:27Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Ok, I think I’m going to need to resubmit this question. > > When I resubmit, I’ll make the following addenda : > > A good and fair leader does not murder people. If the dictator had anyone killed who was not holding a weapon or convicted of murder in a fair trial, that’s an instant dis-qualifier. If his security forces were forced to shoot when attempting to break up a protest, that’s ok, however, as long as they weren’t machine gunning entire crowds. > > The dictator must be a dictator, with the power to overrule anyone he chooses for any reason at any time. Queen Victoria doesn’t count (her powers had significant limitations), Putin doesn’t count (as of right now, he still has checks on his power), and so forth. :smack: Oh well, in that case, cancel my second suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/103 "2013-11-02T23:29:00Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I would definitely not include the Shah of Iran. Resting his inclusion on being better than the current Islamic Republic is setting the bar so low it’s being set on the floor. It’s like including the Tsars because they were better than the communists that followed; that they were so horrible and hated by the masses that communism or an Islamic republic seemed like a better idea speaks volumes. Remember that it was [SAVAK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK) that kept the Shah in power. Most of the other dictators listed here also practised torture. And the Shah at least seriously pursued secularism and gender egalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/104 "2013-11-02T23:35:53Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > A good and fair leader does not murder people. If the dictator had anyone killed who was not holding a weapon or convicted of murder in a fair trial, that’s an instant dis-qualifier. If his security forces were forced to shoot when attempting to break up a protest, that’s ok, however, as long as they weren’t machine gunning entire crowds. > > The dictator must be a dictator, with the power to overrule anyone he chooses for any reason at any time. Queen Victoria doesn’t count (her powers had significant limitations), Putin doesn’t count (as of right now, he still has checks on his power), and so forth. By adding these two provisos, you’ve pretty much excluded any possible candidates. Dictators are dictators because they rule through the use of force rather than by the consent of the governed. In order to maintain power, at some point they are going to have to exercise lethal force. I doubt there are any full dictatorships in which no opponents were “disappeared” or “killed while trying to avoid arrest.” ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/105 "2013-11-02T23:41:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Most of the other dictators listed here also practised torture. The question was what dictator was as good or better leader than elected officials. Not which dictator is better than other dictators. The Shah was very modestly less barbaric than Saddam Hussein. Doesn’t make him a good leader. He was in fact a pretty shitty one. > [@](#): > > And the Shah at least seriously pursued secularism and gender egalitarianism. Always by fiat and not occasionally by force. Whether you are mandating headscarves ( the mullahs ) or banning them ( the Shah ), you are being repressive and patriarchal either way. In fact the Shah did accomplish some bits of real good in his half-assed progressivism. But he was so ham-handed at how he went about it that it caused a severe backlash even among the _educated secular middle-class_. You had young secular college women wearing scarves as an expression of solidarity with their middle-aged bazaari mothers who were humiliated to be forced to be out in public without them. Which led all the easier to Khomeini and company seizing control. Just like French absolutism helped set the stage for Robespierre, that Shah and his corrupt, plutocratic cronies gets to share just a bit in the excesses of his successors. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/106 "2013-11-02T23:45:11Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Indeed, why just look at [this shot of Berlin after Adolf’s improvements](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/641/aafx.jpg). The crazy thing about the picture is the intact buildings. I mean, I get the bombs break everything and burn it all down, that is what they are for. But, there’s buildings in the lower right that do not appear to have a scratch on them! ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/107 "2013-11-02T23:54:46Z")
Alberto Fujimori: Ended that hiperinflation crisis Put Peru on the road the success it’s on (and that all his successors have continued) Reduced terrorism from a being a threat to national stability to a very localised proble. It’s grown back beause supporting the army against terrorists meant being labled a human rights abuser, e.g. soldiers and police were put to trial for shooting after being shot at (and not telling the terrorists to go to their happy place) or taking the bodies of their dead comareds (because the coroner didn0t authotize the move). Sure, human rights abuses, but an order of magnitude less than his democratic predecessors. Corruption on a new level, but basically his problem was that the bribing was filmed. The motherfucker saved my country. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/108 "2013-11-03T00:01:58Z")
As to Franco, Nava had a [killer post almost four years ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10748496&postcount=20) > [@](#): > > Said by my Republican grandfather to my Carlista Dad, during the late 70s and early 80s when all of a sudden “nobody had fought for him:” “you know, your Dad must have been Superman, cos him and Paco Rana single-handedly beat all thirty million of us!” > Dad, deadpan: “and my Uncle Javier. He died in the war, so he never got a chance to claim he wasn’t there.” > “Ah, so that’s why I remember more than one red beret attacking my tank! Your Dad, and your uncle!” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/109 "2013-11-03T00:21:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Most of the other dictators listed here also practised torture. And the Shah at least seriously pursued secularism and gender egalitarianism. **Tamerlane** answered this one very eloquently. Pursuing secularism and gender egalitarianism aren’t what defines a good leader or benevolent dictator, particularly when they are done in the manner that the Shah did. The Shah was absolutely reviled by his own people, and the brutally repressive actions of SAVAK were the only things keeping him in power. Calling him a good leader because what followed was worse in some ways makes as much sense as calling the tsars good leaders because what followed them was worse in some ways, or calling Louis XVI a good leader because of the Reign of Terror. The failures, horrors, or excesses of those who deposed them (or whoever wound up on top after the revolution ate itself) doesn’t retroactively make them good leaders. That they were so universally reviled that they were deposed by their own subjects in purely internal revolutions speaks to their _failure_ as leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/110 "2013-11-03T02:42:06Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > If having a parliament which votes on taxes disqualfies you from being a dictator, there would be a lot less of them. > > One of Victoria’s early actions was to keep a Whig prime minister, Melbourne, despite the conservatives having won the election. I don’t know the details of British parliamentary procedure, but I’m pretty sure that if Obama had kept Pelosi on as speaker for few years, even though the GOP had won a majority of the House, most people would think the US was turning into a dictatorship – and we wouldn’t have had the shutdown or sequestration. > > It’s true that when Victoria struggled with parliament, she didn’t always win. I didn’t say she was an absolute dictator. > > Of course, she wasn’t a 20th century dictator because, in the 1850’s, she stopped struggling with parliament. > > Maybe this isn’t a better known because the idea of a woman voluntarily giving up power for the greater good, however wise a decision it was, doesn’t totally fit with a feminist narrative. This an extremely ignorant view of Queen Victoria – she had never remotely been anything like a dictator, and of all the monarchies of Europe, the British was the least absolute. Victoria never simply “stopped struggling” with Parliament. In fact, the tradition of the royal family being non-partisan and such was due to the influence of her husband, Prince Albert. But she was in no way a dictator, and it’s ridiculous to suggest it. You also show a complete lack of knowledge of what the Bedchamber Plot was all about – it wasn’t just about keeping Melbourne in office. Please quit digging yourself in deeper, I’m experiencing some serious second-hand embarassment here watching you argue this. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/111 "2013-11-03T04:20:32Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > This is not right. Spain became a unified monarchy at the beginning of the 18th century with the Decretos de Nueva Planta No it didn’t. That’s the absorption of Aragon into Castille: it did not affect Navarre, which did not join “her sister Castille” in forming the single Kingdom of Spain until the _Tratado de Hermandad_, which the rest of you refer to as the _Ley Paccionada_. In fact, the Foral territories were the biggest hemorroid of Philip V’s reign, as he could not force any of us into following the general laws of Castille. The Vascongados, because their Fueros were considered part of Castillian law (but one part whose application was territorially limited); us, because we were still a separate Kingdom. Heck, we were the one to which he owed his crowns… what was he going to do, invade us? We would still have told him to stick his _contrafueros_ where the sun don’t shine (that is, in a covered wastebasket). I understand most teachers of Administrative Law have conniptions when it comes time to teach a Union Treaty which was signed by Pamplona and Madrid as equal partners. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/112 "2013-11-03T04:22:34Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > What about Juan Peron? His economics may have been flawed, but he did institute a form of social welfare that helped the population. The governments before and after him were pretty chaotic. the fact that a lot of people remember and love him still, to the point where they elected his widow, says something about his policies. Though his hands weren’t clean (especially the second time around), Peron wasn’t a dictator, IMHO, since he was popularly elected in relatively free elections. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/113 "2013-11-03T04:23:04Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The question was what dictator was as good or better leader than elected officials. Not which dictator is better than other dictators. The Shah was very modestly less barbaric than Saddam Hussein. Doesn’t make him a good leader. He was in fact a pretty shitty one. Except that the Shah was better than certain elected leaders-namely the current leadership of Iran. > [@](#): > > Always by fiat and not occasionally by force. Whether you are mandating headscarves ( the mullahs ) or banning them ( the Shah ), you are being repressive and patriarchal either way. In fact the Shah did accomplish some bits of real good in his half-assed progressivism. But he was so ham-handed at how he went about it that it caused a severe backlash even among the _educated secular middle-class_. You had young secular college women wearing scarves as an expression of solidarity with their middle-aged bazaari mothers who were humiliated to be forced to be out in public without them. Which led all the easier to Khomeini and company seizing control. Just like French absolutism helped set the stage for Robespierre, that Shah and his corrupt, plutocratic cronies gets to share just a bit in the excesses of his successors. I agree that some of his secularist policies were heavy-handed but banning handscarves were practiced by other secularizing leaders such as Ataturk, and even practiced by some democratic states such as France in some areas such as public schools. Not that I support it personally but it isn’t exactly something limited to totalitarian regimes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/114 "2013-11-03T04:32:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Except that the Shah was better than certain elected leaders-namely the current leadership of Iran. I’m pretty sure when the OP mentioned “elected leaders” they meant democratically elected not those elected by the Assembly of Experts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/115 "2013-11-03T05:55:24Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > Ok, I think I’m going to need to resubmit this question. > > When I resubmit, I’ll make the following addenda : > > A good and fair leader does not murder people. If the dictator had anyone killed who was not holding a weapon or convicted of murder in a fair trial, that’s an instant dis-qualifier. If his security forces were forced to shoot when attempting to break up a protest, that’s ok, however, as long as they weren’t machine gunning entire crowds. > > The dictator must be a dictator, with the power to overrule anyone he chooses for any reason at any time. Queen Victoria doesn’t count (her powers had significant limitations), Putin doesn’t count (as of right now, he still has checks on his power), and so forth. I don’t think _any_ modern dictator would qualify then. \*\*Colibri \*\*is correct. I suppose it’d be possible to search thru history and find some Tyrant who was pushed into office for the interim during an emergency and who left right after who might then qualify. Some of the early Roman republican “Dictators” would fit. And, those would be “dictators” then in name only since they did govern with the consent of the Senate & People. There might be a Roman Emperor or two that qualified. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/116 "2013-11-03T06:51:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Except that the Shah was better than certain elected leaders-namely the current leadership of Iran. I don’t think it’s sinking in for you just how hated the Shah was when he was deposed. The current leadership most certainly has its problems, but lack of popular support from the Iranian people, much less open hostility from the Iranian people certainly isn’t one of them. The Shah managed to piss off _just about everyone_, hardly the sign of a competent, much less a good leader. He was hated by the poor, the middle class and the wealthy, the secular and the religious, the educated and the illiterate, the political radicals and the apolitical. For [examples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi#Criticism_of_reign_and_causes_of_his_overthrow): > [@](#): > > In October 1971, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi celebrated the twenty-five-hundredth anniversary of the Iranian monarchy. The New York Times reported that $100 million was spent.[49] Next to the ancient ruins of Persepolis, the Shah gave orders to build a tent city covering 160 acres (0.65 km2), studded with three huge royal tents and fifty-nine lesser ones arranged in a star-shaped design. French chefs from Maxim’s of Paris prepared breast of peacock for royalty and dignitaries around the world, the buildings were decorated by Maison Jansen (the same firm that helped Jacqueline Kennedy redecorate the White House), the guests ate off Limoges porcelain china and drank from Baccarat crystal glasses. This became a major scandal as the contrast between the dazzling elegance of celebration and the misery of the nearby villages was so dramatic that no one could ignore it. Months before the festivities, university students went on strike in protest. Indeed, the cost was so sufficiently impressive that the Shah forbade his associates to discuss the actual figures.[50] > > Other actions that are thought to have contributed to his downfall include antagonizing formerly apolitical Iranians — especially merchants of the bazaars — with the creation in 1975 of a single party political monopoly (the Rastakhiz Party), with compulsory membership and dues, and general aggressive interference in the political, economic, and religious concerns of people’s lives;[52] and the 1976 change from an Islamic calendar to an Imperial calendar, marking the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus as the first day, instead of the migration of the Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Medina. This supposed date was designed that the year 2500 would fall on 1941, the year when his own reign started. Overnight, the year changed from 1355 to 2535.[53] During the extravagant festivities to celebrate the 2500th anniversary, the Shah was quoted as saying at Cyrus’s tomb: “Sleep easily, Cyrus, for we are awake.”[54] > > It has been argued that the White Revolution was “shoddily planned and haphazardly carried out”, upsetting the wealthy while not going far enough to provide for the poor or offer greater political freedom.[55] > > Some achievements of the Shah — such as broadened education — had unintended consequences. While school attendance rose (by 1966 the school attendance of urban seven- to fourteen-year-olds was estimated at 75.8%), Iran’s labor market could not absorb a high number of educated youth. In 1966, high school graduates had “a higher rate of unemployment than did the illiterate,”[56] and educated unemployed often supported the revolution. > > The Shah-centered command structure of the Iranian military, and the lack of training to confront civil unrest, was a recipe for disaster and bloodshed. There were several instances where army units had opened fire, the most notorious one being the events of 8 September 1978. On this day, which later became known as ‘Black Friday’, thousands had gathered in Tehran’s Jaleh Square for a religious demonstration. With people refusing to recognize martial law, the soldiers opened fire, killing and seriously injuring a large number of people. Black Friday played a crucial role in further radicalizing the protest movement. This massacre seriously reduced the chances for reconciliation to the level that Black Friday is referred to as point of no return for the revolution. > > The first militant anti-Shah demonstrations of a few hundred started in October 1977, after the death of Khomeini’s son Mostafa.[66] A year later strikes were paralyzing the country, and in early December a “total of 6 to 9 million” — more than 10% of the country – marched against the Shah throughout Iran. > > On 16 January 1979, he [the Shah] made a contract with Farboud and left Iran at the behest of Prime Minister Shapour Bakhtiar (a long time opposition leader himself), who sought to calm the situation.[69] Spontaneous attacks by members of the public on statues of the Pahlavis followed, and “within hours, almost every sign of the Pahlavi dynasty” was destroyed. His vast personal wealth obtained through gross corruption also hardly made him popular as the ruler of a nation with severe problems with poverty: > [@](#): > > By 1958 it was estimated that the companies possessed by Mohammad Reza Pahlavi had a value of 157 million dollars (1958 USD) with an estimated additional 100 million saved outside Iran.[97] The rumors and constant talk of his, and his family’s corruption greatly damaged his reputation and lead to the creation of the Pahlavi Foundation in the same year and the return of some 2,000 villages inherited by his father back to the people often at very low and discount prices,[98] however it can be argued that this was too little too late as the royal family’s wealth and corruption can be seen as one of the factors behind the Iranian revolution in 1979. Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi’s wealth was even considerable during his time in exile. While staying in the Bahamas he offered to purchase the island that he was staying on for 425 million dollars[99] (1979 USD), however his offer was rejected by the Bahamas claiming that the island was worth far more. > > On 14 January 1979, an article titled “Little pain expected in exile for Shah” by The Spokesman Review newspaper found that the Pahlavi dynasty had amassed one of the largest private fortunes in the world; estimated at well over $1 billion at the time.[100] A list submitted to the ministry of justice in protest to the royal families penetration of every corner of nations economy detailed that the Pahlavi dynasty dominated the economy of Iran at the time. The list showed that the Pahlavi dynasty had interests in, amongst other things, 17 banks and insurance companies, including an 90 percent ownership in the nations third-largest insurance company, 25 metal enterprises, 8 mining companies, 10 building materials companies, including 25 percent of the largest cement company, 45 construction companies, 43 food companies, and 26 enterprises in trade or commerce, including a share of ownership in almost every major hotel in Iran. According to another source, the Pahlavi’s owned 70 percent of the hotel capacity in the country at the time. Much of the Pahlavi dynasty fortune was required to be transferred to the “Pahlavi Foundation”, a charitable organization and the families trust. The organization refuses to give any value of its assets or an annual income but a published book in Iran by Robert Graham, a British journalist, calculates that on the basis of its known holdings, the foundation assets total over $2.8 billion at the time. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/117 "2013-11-03T07:58:20Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > A good and fair leader does not murder people. If the dictator had anyone killed who was not holding a weapon or convicted of murder in a fair trial, that’s an instant dis-qualifier. Wait a minute. If this applies equally and in the same way to “democratically elected leaders” as it does to “dictators” then the whole thing is impossible. Franco, as far as I know and everybody else knows, did not “murder” anybody himself. He signed or endorsed plenty of death warrants issued by courts. Now we enter into what can be considered a “fair trial” and probably many of Franco’s trials would not be considered fair by today’s standards but many American trials of the time, and even later, would not be considered fair either. Even today there is much question about the fairness in the application of the death penalty in America. Why would democratically elected leaders get a pass? Is the death penalty in China not acceptable but acceptable in America? Who defines “fair trial”? Who defines “democracy”? Who defines dictatorship? Because it is not a discrete distinction, it is a continuum full of shades. Most so-called dictatorships have elections. You can say they are rigged. What makes Iranian or Chinese elections rigged and American or European elections not rigged? So Pinochet bears responsibility for the deaths of those killed under his regime. Why does the responsibility stop there? How about extending it to some of those who put him in power and helped him carry out his plans? How far does responsibiity reach? Is the president of the USA responsible for the killings and tortures carried out by the USA? If not, why not? The way the question is asked seems disingenuous to me. It is like trying to define “terrorism” with the condtion that the same act committed by the USA is not terrorism but committed by the enemies of the USA IS terrorism. The only way to make the comparison meaningful is to have the exact same conditions for all leaders being compared. And I think there is probably no leader of any large country who is not responsible for some deaths which can be considered " unfair. People who are kind and wouldn’t hurt anyone do not usually make it to the top because others more ruthless push them out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/118 "2013-11-03T10:24:47Z")
Sheikh Mohammad, the current ruler of Dubai is generally considered to be a good ruler. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/119 "2013-11-03T10:59:20Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Indeed, why just look at [this shot of Berlin after Adolf’s improvements](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/641/aafx.jpg). To be fair, he subcontracted the job to the Americans and their buddies. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807/120 "2013-11-03T11:04:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No it didn’t. That’s the absorption of Aragon into Castille: it did not affect Navarre, which did not join “her sister Castille” in forming the single Kingdom of Spain until the _Tratado de Hermandad_, which the rest of you refer to as the _Ley Paccionada_. I don’t want to sidetrack or hijack the thread over this point but I will say that I take your point but also that there is enough room and nuance that I could argue the point round or flat so I’ll just drop it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-20th-century-examples-of-dictators-who-were-good-leaders-and-better-than-elected-polticos/672807.md?page=7)