# Are There Absolute Truths? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2002, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542 "2002-11-13T05:31:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/21 "2002-11-13T08:04:38Z")
> [@](#): > > if we admit this small list though, all of pure mathematics is provable. > [@](#): > > and if that’s not the case, it could be easy to show that through a set of undefinables, we have enough room to inject outside statements so that the truth of such statements can be established. So we start with a small list, but some things are unprovable; so we throw in some things to decide those unprovable statements. But then we’re right back where we started; Godel’s theorem still applies, and we _still_ have unprovable statements. ---
**Author:** ![Pythagras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@Pythagras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagras)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/22 "2002-11-13T08:40:14Z")
Any accepted truth must require faith by the believer. It is an act of faith that I accept what scientists tell me that the world is made of atoms. Even if they show it by deduction, I must accept their premises. If they use scientific data, I must have faith that my eyes arent faulty, that instrumentation works, and that the world is a rational place. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/23 "2002-11-13T09:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ramanujan \* > \*\*“is it an absolute truth that there are no absolute truths?” > > absolutely not. if you consider this statement without the benefit of logic, it has no meaning, and therefore is not absolutely true. \*\* Yet LOGIC dictates that if your claim is not absolutely true, then there are absolute truths. In other words, your statement is self-refuting. That’s what pure and simple LOGIC says. And you have yet to explain why something must be explained in simpler terms, in order to be accepted as factual (i.e. true). You are apparently positing it as a given, yet I see no reason to accept it as such. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/24 "2002-11-13T09:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ramanujan \* > \*\* > by “absolutely true”, i assumed the OP meant something which is true in all frames of reference. one frame of reference would certainly be the frame where the concept of truth does not exist. \*\* Not if that frame of reference is self-contradictory… and it is. It would be like saying, “Let us posit a universe where there are no rules.” The statement “There are no rules” is itself a rule, and thus, such a universe is logically incoherent and can not exist, except in a madman’s imagination. Y’see, you keep dancing around the concept of truth, not realizing that this destroys any validity in your arguments. If there is no absolute truth, then we can not accept your own claim as being absolutely true either… and so your own claim disproves itself. It’s like saying “This statement is false” or “All claims are wrong.” Logic dictates that such assertions refute themselves, and are thus logically inconsistent and incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/25 "2002-11-13T11:02:10Z")
Only tautologies, and all tautologies, are absolutely true. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/26 "2002-11-13T13:18:04Z")
There **are** absolute truths but no way to prove them to you in the way you desire. I believe God and what He says in His word are truths, but I can’t prove this to you. It’s faith. In the physical world there are absolute truths also, such as the law of gravity, physics, etc. But, of course, I believe that God can suspend these laws whenever He chooses as He created them to start with. ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/27 "2002-11-13T15:41:12Z")
EVETYTHING I TELL YOU IS A LIE! EVEN MY LAST STATEMENT! ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/28 "2002-11-13T15:44:21Z")
EVERYTHING\* ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/29 "2002-11-13T16:01:01Z")
Norman coordinate! ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/30 "2002-11-13T16:13:09Z")
Is that a Star Trek (TOS) reference? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/31 "2002-11-13T16:29:33Z")
Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![loinburger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@loinburger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loinburger)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/32 "2002-11-13T16:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > **Y’see, you keep dancing around the concept of truth, not realizing that this destroys any validity in your arguments. If there is no absolute truth, then we can not accept your own claim as being absolutely true either… and so your own claim disproves itself. It’s like saying “This statement is false” or “All claims are wrong.” Logic dictates that such assertions refute themselves, and are thus logically inconsistent and incoherent.** Let me get this straight… So because there is no absolute truth, his statement that there is no absolute truth cannot be absolutely true, thus there actually _is_ absolute truth? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/33 "2002-11-13T16:45:53Z")
One time, in a trial I was called in for as a reporter (as in journalist, not court reporter), they had a witness called in to testify. He was being treated as a hostile witness, so they gave him truth serum to loosen him up. Then they had him swear to “tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.” Only, someone jostled the nurse giving him the truth serum and he got too much. Way too much. He started telling “the truth, the WHOLE truth”… Oh, the humanity! It was enough to drive one mad. Or, like me, half-mad (I’m a journalist, you see). I wish I had written some of it down, because now, I can’t remember hardly any of it. Except that were some good bits about frogs. Boy! I’ll never look at frogs the same way again, let me tell you! Anyone seen Arthur Dent? ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/34 "2002-11-13T17:18:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by t-keela \* > \*\*I’m fairly certain that we all die eventually. > > (don’t go philosophical on me, you know exactly what I mean) \*\* It must be true, no one has disputed/or disproven it yet. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/35 "2002-11-13T17:27:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by loinburger \* > \*\* > > Let me get this straight… So because there is no absolute truth, his statement that there is no absolute truth cannot be absolutely true, thus there actually _is_ absolute truth? 😕 \*\* That’s right. Pay close attention, now. If there is no absolute truth, then his claim (“There is no absolute truth”) is not absolutely true. This means that there IS absolute truth, somewhere. Ergo, the claim is self-refuting. It’s like saying “All statements are false.” Well, if all statements are false, then that statement must itself be false. Ergo, the statement refutes itself. This logical process is known as _reduction ad absurdum_ – that is, showing that a statement contradicts itself, and is therefore incoherent and false. It is commonly employed in both mathematics and philosophy, but is sadly unfamiliar to many an armchair philosopher. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/36 "2002-11-13T18:10:32Z")
Preface any statement with the words “I think” or “I believe” and the resulting statement will, if the speaker is not intentionally lying, be absolutely true. ---
**Author:** ![loinburger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@loinburger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loinburger)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/37 "2002-11-13T18:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > **If there is no absolute truth, then his claim (“There is no absolute truth”) is not absolutely true. This means that there IS absolute truth, somewhere. Ergo, the claim is self-refuting.** Problem being that _your_ logic is also self-refuting. If there _is_ absolute truth then the absolute statement “there is no absolute truth” is validated, since the statement was only invalidated in the first place by the statement being true. It’s the same problem encountered when trying to refute the liar’s paradox: the claim “I am telling a lie” cannot be proven to be true _or_ false using just logic even though it is self-contradictory, just as “There is no absolute truth” cannot be affirmed or refuted with logic alone. If you provided an example of a statement that _was_ absolutely true, then the statement “there is no absolute truth” would be demonstrably false. But by using just logic to refute the statement you’re engaging in a performative contradiction – in proving the statement to be false only serves to affirm the statement. ---
**Author:** ![loinburger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/db5fbb/32.png) [@loinburger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/loinburger)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/38 "2002-11-13T18:42:30Z")
Bloody lack of an edit function: that last sentence should read “…contradiction – proving the…” ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/39 "2002-11-13T18:55:45Z")
I came up with an example of the difference between “truth” and “fact.” Let’s say there are three friends A, B & C. On Monday A and B make plans to meet for lunch on Wednesday at 12:00 and A agrees to call C and pass along the appointment time. Then on Tuesday A gets a notice of a meeting Thursday at 12:30. Tuesday is a hectic day and A gets a little disorganized. Later in the day A calls C and says lunch will be Wednesday at 12:30, confusing the times for lunch and the meeting. So on Wednesday, B is sitting in a restaurant for a half hour before A and C show up. When questioned C says that A said 12:30. A says they had agreed on 12:30. Then A remembers the meeting and realizes the error. So, did A tell the truth? Yes. Did A report a fact? No. The truth was in the belief that the times were correct, when in **fact** they weren’t. There was no intention to mislead anybody, simply an error. An error is not a lie. An error that is believed is still true, even if it’s later proven to be factually incorrect. So, to me, a truth is a statement of belief, whereas a fact is a concrete provable statement. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542/40 "2002-11-13T18:56:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NO\_FREEWILL \* > \*\*Norman coordinate! \*\* That’s not a Star trek reference…ITS A BALLYS PARK PLACE REFERENCE! ONE…TWO…THREE…FOUR…FIVE… THAT’S " ERE-BUH "!!!😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-absolute-truths/136542.md?page=3)