# Are there any black Dopers who think Obama's not "black enough"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674 "2008-11-07T18:06:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/21 "2008-11-08T04:02:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I read an interesting article about Obama’s ancestry. It pointed out that his Father is descended from African Arabs, and that they were not the Black kin that people think of as Africans, but the slavers themselves. That his Mother was descended from slave holders. Is that true of Luo? Do they have a history as slavers? It would be interesting if the first black President had more roots with slavers than with slaves. > > This is not to say any of that should be held against him, only that it’s quite interesting in a, “Things that make ya go hmm.”, way. I’m at a loss as to why this would be interesting …or more interesting than the millions of African Americans whose ancestors, through the luck of life’s draw or happenstance, were just as likely to be African slave traders as slaves. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/22 "2008-11-08T04:08:58Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I’m at a loss as to why this would be interesting …or more interesting than the millions of African Americans whose ancestors, through the luck of life’s draw or happenstance, were just as likely to be African slave traders as slaves. Umm, for the same reason all history is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/23 "2008-11-08T04:41:55Z")
This is just my 2 cents but… I’m black. I hate the term “Not black enough” or “not a real brother”. Hate 'em. A through elementary school I was the only black child in many of my classes. So other than the other kids that lived iy neighborhood all of my friends were white. When i entered junior high the started bussing kids from Wilmington to go to school in my (at least then) small town. They viewed us…me…as not a real brother. I took my slings and arrows and resented it. I got called the n-bomb regularly before they got there. To be honest, how dare they call me not black enough. why? Because i didn’t speak in constant slang? Because some of the other kids I grew up with in elementary school were white and friends? When I got to high school the same continued. The inner city kids being bussed in rejected me, and there was a large amount of junior KKK kids that harassed anyone that wasn’t white (I don’t know if they were actual KKK but the claimed it and even had flyers they posted when no teachers were around). So i got it from both sides. I really began to give in to the hate. But you know what happened? A teacher…one of my personal heroes…started the Human Relations Committee. He got a lot of us together, all races. He worked with us on the student council and activities to work together. By the time i graduated we had a coalition of some kind, black, white, asian, whatever. Sure there were still jerks, but I made friends there that I have to this day. I went to college with the attitude that everyone is an individual. They may have cultural, religious, or racial beliefs but its more important on what kind of person they are…not the other stuff. Still I met people that told me flat out “You ain’t a real brother” and “A black man wouldn’t like that music” and so on. I resented it then i resent it now. I’ll always be black, as my cousin said to one guy the only thing I have to do is be black and die. I’ll always be black and I’m gonna die someday. I had a friend in High School, a guy i grew up with tell me that I was doing a white mans job when i joined the military. He was selling fucking drugs at the time. He just got out of jail from what my cousin back home tells me. But what annoys me to this day is that he actually believed that trying to better myself was not black enough. Like i was somehow declaring that i’m not black. A lot of black people were pissed off at Bill Cosby when he said some things, but i think he had a point. We need to stop this stupid ass culture of “thug life”. For a time when I actually had an assignment where I had actual soldiers under my direct command I had a few that felt that way. Man, i had to work with them to get them to realize that they weren’t being revolutionary or making a statement by acting like morons. They weren’t in the 'hood anymore. They had the opportunity to be better than they were…go to college, learn how to interact with others, etc. I can at least be proud that one of them that i know of has made a good career for himself. The idea tha I have things in my own personality and behavior that are supposed to be predetermined by race makes me puke. I don’t particularly like rap music (at least not since the 80s) I was a big Springsteen fan back then BTW, and my favorite singer is Kate Bush, I don’t play basketball and I always try to speak properly. i call people ma’am and sir even when I don’t have to. So yes, Obama is black enough. He may have had circumstances in his life that are not typical. No one should be judged by the color of their skin. Is a mexican that likes classical music and speaks with a new england accent not mexican enough? Its ridiculous, and I reject the idea that people have to be something because of race or ethnicity. sorry for the rant, this is something that I have strong feelings on. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/24 "2008-11-08T04:47:28Z")
> [@raindrop](#): > > The phrase “not black enough” has much more to do with personality, emotions, personal racial identity, than with one’s skin color. On many levels being “black” is a certain attitude and perspective, and is an emotional identity. A person can be the darkest hue and still be accused of not being black enough. But a light-complexioned or mixed race black undeniably attracts more scrutiny in that regard. I’m white, but this is consistent with what I know of the experiences of my biracial friends. As far as I know it’s pretty common for someone to identify as both biracial and black. One of my dearest friends in college was a light skinned biracial woman, much less obviously of African descent than Obama. While she did tell me she’d sometimes been accused of “acting white”, this seemed to have more to do with things like her tastes in music and clothing than her skin color, hair texture, or the fact that one of her parents was white. In other words, if she wasn’t “black enough” it wasn’t really because of her ancestry. I don’t think any black people had ever tried to deny that she was black at _all_. On the other hand, I was aware of various incidents in her life where it was made very clear to her by white people that she wasn’t white. It’s funny to think about someone not being “black enough”, because this issue wouldn’t even come up if the person wasn’t actually considered black. I mean, I’m TWICE as white as Obama, and no one’s ever accused me of not being black enough! I’m sure there are some people out there who feel that Obama doesn’t act the way they think a “true” black man should act, but if they feel that way then they must also feel that he’s at least black enough to be judged by the “true black man” standard. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/25 "2008-11-08T04:49:52Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Its ridiculous, and I reject the idea that people have to be something because of race or ethnicity. Right on, brother. Right on. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/26 "2008-11-10T15:38:53Z")
> [@Stuffy](#): > > While I’ve never encountered anyone saying it myself, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least. In some ways, racism has infected black culture with a perverse sort of internal racism that plays out sub-culturally. Gigi mentioned it, I believe in jest but was in fact not far off from the truth. How we black people treat each other is largely a response to how much we perceive that our upbringing was similar. In a typical day to say setting, lets say a barbershop initially Obama might be perceived as different, but then he might not, his speaking style is familiar to anyone that’s been in church (which would be true of approximately 95% of black people). I put a smilie because I didn’t want to represent the view too strongly because I don’t have the right to, but I know it is an opinion that exists. An Obama who went to Harvard and then schmoozed with white America to make it as a lawyer may have been considered by some as a sellout/bourgoisie; perhaps his pursuit of community work instead changes that view. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/27 "2008-11-10T18:42:09Z")
I’m not Black, but apparently in the US I would be. Anyway, my question would be “Black enough _for what_?” To be discriminated against? To belong in a community? To not _have_ to use SPF50? I think he’d qualify for all of those. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/28 "2008-11-10T21:34:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not Black, but apparently in the US I would be. Anyway, my question would be “Black enough _for what_?” To be discriminated against? To belong in a community? To not _have_ to use SPF50? > > I think he’d qualify for all of those. Why would you be considered black here? ---
**Author:** ![DancinPete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DancinPete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DancinPete)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/29 "2008-11-10T23:01:05Z")
This issue was covered quite well in a “Fresh Prince of Bel-Air” episode where Will and Carleton were applying to get into a black group (or house it’s been a while since I saw the show). Will was accepted but Carleton was denied as being a sell out… ie: not Street enough. Uncle Phil gives a rousing speech at the end about how being black is not about what clothes you wear, or music you listen to, but about the colour of your skin. not sure if this is really pertinant to the OP, but the fact that I still remember the episode 10 years later must say something. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/30 "2008-11-11T07:21:18Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Why would you be considered black here? Because I have mocha skin and nappy hair, and I don’t speak Spanish or Tamil. And I’m from Africa. AFAIK, Khoisan doesn’t exist as a common classification, nor would mulatto or Coloured go over very well, I think. Biracial comes closest in sense, but it’s not accurate, though, as it generally implies a mix of Black and White, and there’s no Black in me AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/31 "2008-11-11T09:44:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I read an interesting article about Obama’s ancestry. It pointed out that his Father is descended from African Arabs, and that they were not the Black kin that people think of as Africans, but the slavers themselves. That his Mother was descended from slave holders. Is that true of Luo? Do they have a history as slavers? It would be interesting if the first black President had more roots with slavers than with slaves. > > This is not to say any of that should be held against him, only that it’s quite interesting in a, “Things that make ya go hmm.”, way. Huh? The article you read sounds like confused bollocks. His father was Luo, not Swahili. As I recall his grandfather was a convert to Islam. The Luo are inlanders, it would appear the article you read confused Obama’s ancestry with the Swahili ethnic group, which has some degree of mixed ancestry (including Arab, Persian, Indian roots, as well as Bantu), and which is heavily Muslim. As for slavery, all (or virtually all) African ethnic groups practised slavery in some form, so this is pretty meaningless. All in all, you seem to have read an article that was neither accurate nor interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/32 "2008-11-11T12:10:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Ask a Spaniard what they think of Basques. That they’re big, play lots of jai-alai and the women have flat asses? I’ve only encountered “Spaniard against Basque” racism once, and it was from the same kind of morons who a few months before had been telling me I wasn’t basque enough for not being a separatist… (it was a couple weeks after ETA killed 21 people in the non-Basque town that specific moron was from). Basque against anybody else is more common, sadly, and often from people who don’t even realize they’re being racist. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/33 "2008-11-11T12:34:52Z")
> [@DancinPete](#): > > Uncle Phil gives a rousing speech at the end about how being black is not about what clothes you wear, or music you listen to, but about the colour of your skin. _sniff_ Rousing indeed. I remember getting a lump in my threat, and even a little misty-eyed, pondering that glorious day when our children will finally be judged simply by the colour of their skin… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/34 "2008-11-11T12:38:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because I have mocha skin and nappy hair, and I don’t speak Spanish or Tamil. And I’m from Africa. AFAIK, Khoisan doesn’t exist as a common classification, nor would mulatto or Coloured go over very well, I think. Biracial comes closest in sense, but it’s not accurate, though, as it generally implies a mix of Black and White, and there’s no Black in me AFAIK. I am not very familiar with South African racial classification; what exactly does it mean to say “there’s no Black in me”? And what _is_ your ancestry like? I would have assumed your mocha skin and nappy hair were the result of the sort of sub-Saharan ancestry we Americans would generally associate with being “black”, but perhaps not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/35 "2008-11-11T12:47:23Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I am not very familiar with South African racial classification; what exactly does it mean to say “there’s no Black in me”? I have no Bantu ancestry. I do not speak a Bantu language as my cultural tongue. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > And what _is_ your ancestry like? Khoekhoen, European and Asian (Indian & Malay). Khoekhoen aren’t Black. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/36 "2008-11-11T12:53:23Z")
Ah, right; sorry, you had mentioned Khoisan ancestry but I forgot. It’s interesting that the term “black” is apparently synonymous with Bantu ancestry in South African culture; I had not realized that. You’re right; you’d probably be called “black” or “multiracial” here in the States. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/37 "2008-11-11T12:54:53Z")
He’d be called black. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/38 "2008-11-11T13:02:52Z")
Is that meant to be a correction to my offering of two possibilities? Well, depending on how exactly he looks, how he chose to self-identify, and the exact details of his background, it seems to me plausible that he might be called “multiracial” in certain contexts, even while being called “black” without reservation in others or even simultaneously, the way, say, Tiger Woods or Halle Berry are described. But what do I know? Not that any of it has any particularly concrete significance, but as far as the question of typical American racial-labelling behavior goes, that seems to me the answer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/39 "2008-11-11T13:08:35Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > It’s interesting that the term “black” is apparently synonymous with Bantu ancestry in South African culture; I had not realized that. Why shouldn’t it be so? If there’s any (even, only, illusionary) truth to broad race classifications, then Khoisan is further removed from Black than European is from … Patagonian. Let me rephrase that - cladastically, a chocolate-coloured Nigerian herdsman is genetically closer to a freckled, pale, Irish redhead than to a San hunter. So’s the Crown Prince of Japan, a full-blood Cherokee and a Maori. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674/40 "2008-11-11T13:13:22Z")
I don’t disagree with your cladistic analysis; I was just saying it was interesting in that, nonetheless, I had not been aware that that was the definition of the term in some cultures, rather markedly different from how it is employed in my own culture (i.e., just “Somewhat dark skin from sub-Saharan ancestry” or something like that). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-black-dopers-who-think-obamas-not-black-enough/471674.md?page=3)