# Are there any Christian theocracies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 2, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097 "2006-01-02T18:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Serket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Serket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serket)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/1 "2006-01-02T18:11:20Z")
There are a few Muslim theocracies (Iran, Saudi Arabia), but are there any Christian ones? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/2 "2006-01-02T18:21:36Z")
Only one that comes to mind is the Holy See (Vatican City). Several countries in Europe have established state churches, but they aren’t theocracies. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/3 "2006-01-02T18:21:57Z")
No, there are not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/4 "2006-01-02T18:23:16Z")
Does Saudi Arabia count as a theocracy? If so, then there certainly were many Christian theocracies a few hundred years ago. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/5 "2006-01-02T18:25:03Z")
Iran definitely counts as a theocracy. I’m not sure about Saudi. It’s certainly an aristrocracy and a dictatorship, but the most powerful leaders are generally not clergy, as far as I know. But the leaders happen to enforce a lot of religious doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/6 "2006-01-02T18:33:01Z")
Wiki link on [Theocracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy). Interesting reading. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/7 "2006-01-02T18:34:11Z")
**frido** , the question is whether there are any Christian theocracies. Even Vatican City is less a Christian theocracy than it appears. Criminal cases (such as the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II) are referred to Italian civil law and courts. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/8 "2006-01-02T18:37:26Z")
The Holy See used to control much larger territories in Italy, but Vatican City isn’t much in comparison and its government isn’t designed to run the lives of its individual citizens. Large scale religious wars in Europe in the 16th-18th Centuries put a damper on European theocratic governments. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/9 "2006-01-02T18:48:48Z")
There is an official Protestant Church of England and the Monarch is automatically Head of the Church. No Catholic is allowed to ascend to the UK throne. But the UK is governed in practice by an elected Parliament (technically the Monarch signs the Bills into Law, but I don’t remember there ever being a refusal.) The Constitution of Eire included references to the special position of the Catholic Church until these were removed in 1973. ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/10 "2006-01-02T19:26:34Z")
> [@glee](#): > > There is an official Protestant Church of England and the Monarch is automatically Head of the Church. No Catholic is allowed to ascend to the UK throne. But the UK is governed in practice by an elected Parliament (technically the Monarch signs the Bills into Law, but I don’t remember there ever being a refusal.) The last UK monarch to actually veto a bill was Queen Anne in 1708. ([Wikipedia link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_assent)) On the postion of the Church of England, I would say that it’s almost the antithesis of a theocracy. The temporal leader (the Queen) has power over the spiritual authorities (the Church). In a theocracy, the positions are reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Floyd\_Remora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@Floyd\_Remora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd_Remora)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/11 "2006-01-02T21:18:08Z")
Ask again in about ten years and the United States will probably be on the list. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/12 "2006-01-02T21:19:06Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > On the postion of the Church of England, I would say that it’s almost the antithesis of a theocracy. The temporal leader (the Queen) has power over the spiritual authorities (the Church). In a theocracy, the positions are reversed. > [@](#): > > Sir John Babcock was raised in the Church of England, of which it has been said that it is a very accommodating church, in that it interferes neither with a man’s politics nor with his religion. – Robert Anton Wilson, _Masks of the Illuminati_ (quote is from memory, may not be verbatim) ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/13 "2006-01-02T23:23:29Z")
There are a number of European countries with official Christian denomonations but I don’t know that any count as “theocracies.” Similarly many nations in Latin America had a series of concordats with the Catholic Church which effectively had veto power over changing certain laws (divorce etc) but this has largely ended. I believe the president of Lebanon is required to be Christian but this ikely doesn’t meet the requirement of a “theocracy” either. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/14 "2006-01-02T23:41:20Z")
> [@Floyd Remora](#): > > Ask again in about ten years and the United States will probably be on the list. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/15 "2006-01-02T23:42:47Z")
Franco’s Spain was more the model for the relation of church and state in the old days. The ruler enlists the church as an ally in controlling the populace. The ruler by putting chains on their legs, and the church by putting chains in their minds. The ruler allows the church a generous share of power in ruling over the consciences of the flock, which the church legitimates the regime. I once worked at a publishing house and looked over an unsolicited manuscript before throwing it away, it was by an Irish-American ultraconservative Catholic. He praised the Franco regime with the description “altar and throne” referring to what I’m talking about. Franco has gone down in history as a Fascist: he employed Fascist military force and Fascist methods of tyranny to strengthen his rule. Ideologically he was not a Fascist but a throwback to the Middle Ages, when the church served the state interests and was rewarded quid pro quo. (Except for situations like the Guelphs and Ghibellines, when the religious and temporal powers were at odds.) Italian Fascist ideology derived from the Futurism of Marinetti, whose aim was to tear down the last vestiges of the old system and replace everything with machines. Out with the organic, in with the mechanic. Franco used Mussolini’s and Hitler’s mechanized military forces, but his political system was basically medieval. ---
**Author:** ![Floyd\_Remora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@Floyd\_Remora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd_Remora)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/16 "2006-01-03T00:25:48Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > :rolleyes: Care to elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/17 "2006-01-03T00:36:53Z")
Other than the Papal States (a kind of specialized case), and the hand-in-glove relationship between church and state found in the Byzantine Empire and many European monarchies during the _cuius regio, eius religio_ period, one solid example would be Calvin’s Geneva, a city-state run explicitly on Calvin’s politico-religious theories. Lebanon, by the way, has a whole series of religious qualifications for various offices, with the intent of protecting the mosaic of religious faiths in that country from domination by any one of them. Office X must be a Melkite Christian, Office Y must be a Sunni Muslim, Office Z must be a Shi’a Muslim, Office W a Druze, Office V a Maronite Christian, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/18 "2006-01-03T01:19:29Z")
> [@Floyd Remora](#): > > Care to elaborate? You might want to read [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=176699) first. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/19 "2006-01-03T01:22:26Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Lebanon, by the way, has a whole series of religious qualifications for various offices, with the intent of protecting the mosaic of religious faiths in that country from domination by any one of them. Office X must be a Melkite Christian, Office Y must be a Sunni Muslim, Office Z must be a Shi’a Muslim, Office W a Druze, Office V a Maronite Christian, and so on. 😕 What the hell are Lebanese atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, and none-of-the-aboves supposed to do? I’m not exaggerating. One of my friends is an Israeli Witch and she told me she once got into contact with a group of Wiccans in Lebanon, but it was kept very secret for fear of persecution. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097/20 "2006-01-03T02:02:13Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > The last UK monarch to actually veto a bill was Queen Anne in 1708. ([Wikipedia link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_assent)) > > On the postion of the Church of England, I would say that it’s almost the antithesis of a theocracy. The temporal leader (the Queen) has power over the spiritual authorities (the Church). In a theocracy, the positions are reversed. But the temporal leader _is_ the head spiritual authority. I think it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that, on paper, the UK is a theocracy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-christian-theocracies/338097.md?page=2)