# Are there any countries with literal second class citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968 "2012-12-24T00:16:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/1 "2012-12-24T00:16:56Z")
The term “second class citizen” gets thrown around a lot. It usually doesn’t refer to a true, _de jure_ second and lesser type of national citizenship, but refers to some group that are supposed to be full citizens but, for some reason, they are not treated fairly in their day to day life. In other words, the term is a metaphor. Are there any countries that have _literal_ second class citizens defined in their basic nationality law? To some extent, US citizens who have been convicted of a felony are, to some extent, “second class citizen” because they often cannot vote or possess a firearm, but “felon” is not inheritable. Are there any countries where the children of second class citizens become second class citizens by operation of law, the child of two first class citizens becomes a first class citizen, and the offspring of a second class citizen and a first class citizen gets assigned a citizenship based on some defined rule? I’d consider Heinlein’s _Starship Troopers_ to be an example of the kind of thing that might qualify (but I can’t recall if he ever said that full citizenship was inheritable, so it might not really and truly-o count). ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/2 "2012-12-24T01:58:20Z")
I’m just guessing, but you might want to investigate the situation of non-Muslims born in officially Muslim countries, or Palestinians born in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/3 "2012-12-24T02:28:13Z")
“Koreans” in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/4 "2012-12-24T02:30:31Z")
Do Mauritanian slaves hold citizenship? Not quite your answer, but in the United Arab Emirates, only ~20% of the people are citizens. IIRC non-Arabs, and maybe even non-Emirati Arabs, are forbidden from citizenship. Some of the foreign workers are in a state of basically wage slavery, where they can leave as soon as they pay back their employer’s fees, with interest. > [@Chimera](#): > > “Koreans” in Japan. Why the scare quotes? More info: [Zainichi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan) ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/5 "2012-12-24T02:32:53Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Not quite your answer, but in the United Arab Emirates, only ~20% of the people are citizens. IIRC non-Arabs, and maybe even non-Emirati Arabs, are forbidden from citizenship. Some of the foreign workers are in a state of basically wage slavery, where they can leave as soon as they pay back their employer’s fees, with interest. Non-citizens can’t, by definition, be second-class citizens. In most countries citizens have rights that non-citizens don’t. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/6 "2012-12-24T02:36:04Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Do Mauritanian slaves hold citizenship? > > Not quite your answer, but in the United Arab Emirates, only ~20% of the people are citizens. IIRC non-Arabs, and maybe even non-Emirati Arabs, are forbidden from citizenship. Some of the foreign workers are in a state of basically wage slavery, where they can leave as soon as they pay back their employer’s fees, with interest. > Why the scare quotes? > > More info: [Zainichi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan) Not certain, but I assume it’s because even having Korean ancestors or being rumored to be Korean can sometimes be enough to make you ‘one of _them_’. The Korean hate is strong over there. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/7 "2012-12-24T02:43:03Z")
What about the question of [“US nationals” vs. “US citizens?”](http://askville.amazon.com/difference-citizen-national/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=5225844) Being a national but not a citizen appears to be a legal status that is inheritable. Such individuals are not foreigners, since they owe no allegiance to any country but the US, but the US does not recognize them as citizens per se. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/8 "2012-12-24T02:43:00Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Non-citizens can’t, by definition, be second-class citizens. In most countries citizens have rights that non-citizens don’t. Correct but it depends how picky you want to get. The term ‘citizen’ usually means all rights are bestowed and there are no secondary classes but I would include cases in which some people are given a status of less than citizen for no reason other than ethnicity or birthright despite fulfilling all other requirements. The closest thing the U.S. has is American Samoans. They are ‘Nationals’ rather than full citizens unlike the people of other territories like Puerto Rico. The differences are minor in practical terms and were agreed upon ahead of time so you don’t hear much fuss about it. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/9 "2012-12-24T02:44:25Z")
Second-class citizen is defined in the dictionaries I found online as an unofficial designation. So, probably nothing official. First usage is apparently 1942, but I couldn’t find the exact reference to see the context. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/10 "2012-12-24T03:00:04Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Not certain, but I assume it’s because even having Korean ancestors or being rumored to be Korean can sometimes be enough to make you ‘one of _them_’. The Korean hate is strong over there. Is the hate and discrimination primarily de facto based on people’s prejudices, or are there Japanese citizens of Korean descent that are _de jure_ discriminated against? E.g. is there a law that says that votes cast by Japanese citizens of Korean descent count less than the votes of other Japanese citizens, or that Korean-Japanese citizens cannot advance past the rank of Captain in the armed services because it’s _illegal_ for an ethnic Korean to be Colonel or General (not just institutional prejudice, but actually enshrined in law)? > [@OldGuy](#): > > Non-citizens can’t, by definition, be second-class citizens. In most countries citizens have rights that non-citizens don’t. Yes. If we said that a non-citizen counts as a second class citizen, then the answer would be that every country has them. Which obviously isn’t what I’m after. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > … > > The closest thing the U.S. has is American Samoans. They are ‘Nationals’ rather than full citizens unlike the people of other territories like Puerto Rico. The differences are minor in practical terms and were agreed upon ahead of time so you don’t hear much fuss about it. This is probably a good example because the status is inheritable, though, I assume that they can just move to the US mainland, Puerto Rico, or one of the other territories with jus soli citizenship and children born there would be full “US Citizens”. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/11 "2012-12-24T03:02:23Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I’d consider Heinlein’s _Starship Troopers_ to be an example of the kind of thing that might qualify (but I can’t recall if he ever said that full citizenship was inheritable, so it might not really and truly-o count). Franchise is definitely not hereditary in the ST world. Each citizen must earn it for him/herself. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/12 "2012-12-24T03:20:41Z")
The Hill People (various ethnic groups) of Thailand generally have only 2nd-class status. Many of them, despite that their ancestors were born in Thailand, are denied ID cards. (ID cards are essential for voting, banking, employment, and any government interaction.) There are several non-Hill ethnic groups in Thailand which have full citizenship and are bilingual (Thai at school, different language at home), but I think many or most Hill Tribes lack Thai schools. Although I’ve talked to Hill Tribesmen who would need to pay thousands of dollars for an ID card, I’m not really familiar with details. I think citizenship can be provided to or withheld from any tribe based on official whim (or, more likely, bribe payment). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/13 "2012-12-24T03:23:52Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Non-citizens can’t, by definition, be second-class citizens. In most countries citizens have rights that non-citizens don’t. Right. Check the first four words again. Of course they should have the right to “discriminate,” at least with voting, etc. I do wonder if it makes sense to compare a person born in a jus soli country with few ties and a lifelong resident of a jus sanguinis place. The latter would be expected to have fewer rights, but there are still eyebrows raised if it goes beyond the typical. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Is the hate and discrimination primarily de facto based on people’s prejudices, or are there Japanese citizens of Korean descent that are _de jure_ discriminated against? I don’t know about de jure, but de facto it can affect their success. When you have the Governor of Tokyo, the largest city in the world, repeatedly say racist things about mostly Koreans, but also Chinese and Westerners, unrepentantly, it does suggest attitudes are strong. By the way, he was so hated he was in office for 13 years. He resigned to… take another office. Wikipedia has information on de jure under the “Integration into Japanese society” section. There’s a distinction between Japanese Citizenship and Japanese Nationality. Many have “Japanese names,” (e.g. the [guy who trained Sonny Chiba](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masutatsu_Oyama)) not sure how mandatory that is now. If it is/was mandatory, I don’t believe it specifically targeted Koreans though, but all who take citizenship. > [@](#): > > This is probably a good example because the status is inheritable, though, I assume that they can just move to the US mainland, Puerto Rico, or one of the other territories with jus soli citizenship and children born there would be full “US Citizens”. Note about Puerto Rico: it isn’t second class for them to not vote Federally, just like DC, as their inability is tied to residence, not national status. A born Texan who moves to PR can’t vote, and a Puerto Rican who moves to NYC can vote as soon as they register. ---
**Author:** ![montag01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@montag01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/montag01)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/14 "2012-12-24T03:27:41Z")
Is the caste system still significant in India? Perhaps that would count, but I don’t know enough about it to know if those in the lowest caste are actually denied the right to vote, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/15 "2012-12-24T04:43:12Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I’m just guessing … Palestinians born in Israel. Guess again. Palestinians born in Israel are full Israeli citizens, with voting rights like Jewish Israelis. There are three Arab - Israeli political parties, which currently hold 13 seats in the 120 seat Knesset. Some Palestinians in Israel opt not to take Israeli citizenship, in which case they are permanent residents of Israel. Source: [Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/16 "2012-12-24T04:44:16Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Is the caste system still significant in India? Perhaps that would count, but I don’t know enough about it to know if those in the lowest caste are actually denied the right to vote, for instance. Not officially. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/17 "2012-12-24T04:47:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Palestinians born in Israel are full Israeli citizens, with voting rights like Jewish Israelis. There are three Arab - Israeli political parties, which currently hold 13 seats in the 120 seat Knesset. > > Some Palestinians in Israel opt not to take Israeli citizenship, in which case they are permanent residents of Israel. > > Source: [Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel) There you are entering the _de facto_ and _de jure_ territory. Many countries have a de facto second class status while having de jure equality. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/18 "2012-12-24T04:59:01Z")
Fair point, but I read the OP as asking about _de jure_ differences. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/19 "2012-12-24T05:01:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Fair point, but I read the OP as asking about _de jure_ differences. If that is the case then outside of religious requirements for some political offices, not many countries have open discrimination anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/20 "2012-12-24T05:01:46Z")
Even ignoring US Nationals vs US Citizens, we also have the distinction between natural born and naturalized citizens. The distinction is small, the only difference I can think off off the top of my head is the right to hold the presidency, but it’s there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968.md?page=2)