# Are there any countries with literal second class citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968 "2012-12-24T00:16:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/21 "2012-12-24T05:11:25Z")
The possibility also exists for a naturalized citizen to have his or her citizenship revoked in very limited circumstances. I don’t believe that’s in the realm of possibility for a natural-born citizen, ever. ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/22 "2012-12-24T05:17:53Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > Not certain, but I assume it’s because even having Korean ancestors or being rumored to be Korean can sometimes be enough to make you ‘one of _them_’. The Korean hate is strong over there. Then what is with the Kopop obsession in Japan. They seem to love Korea then ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/23 "2012-12-24T05:51:51Z")
Hey, America in the 1930s loved Billie Holiday and Louis Armstrong. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/24 "2012-12-24T06:04:19Z")
1. What about cases where aboriginal populations are treated differently under the law? For example, if a tribe in the Amazonian rainforest is considered not to be subject to Brazilian law, but allowed to manage their own affairs, to the extent that, for example, rape or murder would not be investigated and prosecuted. In that case you would have people who were Brazilian citizens who did not enjoy equal protection under Brazilian law. This is a possibly hypothetical example as I don’t know how this is managed in reality. 1. Historically, feudal societies, such as pre-Revolutionary Russia, had serfs, landowners, aristocracy, and so on; inheritable classes that determined your rights under law. These concepts coexisted (in time) with the modern concept of “citizenship”. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/25 "2012-12-24T06:06:10Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Then what is with the Kopop obsession in Japan. They seem to love Korea then I haven’t really heard about K-Pop being an obsession in Japan but then again I’m not up on the music scene there. But from my understanding (granted it’s only through a few Japanese friends/acquaintances), Koreans are tolerated a lot more as long as they stay in Korea. Sure, there’s the general dislike of Koreans overall but it really gets jumped up a couple of notches when it’s involving Koreans in Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/26 "2012-12-24T06:16:01Z")
Thankfully the Talmud is not Sharia in the State of Israel, but among the religious Jewish body-politic, classes certainly exist \*de jure. \* The word “second” or “third” can be too heavily loaded, of course. More like “differently-abled” and distinct. The Jews, _to this day_, comprise three classes: I: The Kohens (literally, “priests” in Hebrew). These guys are all nominally descendants of the first High Priest of the Temple, Aaron. In practice, anybody named Cohen, Cohn, Cahn, Kahn, Kahan, Caan–yeah, Sonny!–even that prick Roy Cohn, is a member of the priestly class, and had a right to become the high priest. So what does that get them nowadays? The main ones I can remember is that they get to be the first to read or bless the Torah when it is read. This takes place in every Orthodox synagogue. The _sha(h)mus_–in Yiddish, the sexton or beadle (?), the guy who keeps things running-- will either know who they are, or go down the aisles asking if anyone’s a cohen. The standard reply is “no, but I’m working on it.” (BTW, “shamus,” with a long a, as in 1940s detective stories/movies, comes from that word). Once a year, on Yom Kippur (for Ashkenazim), Cohens recite to the rest of the congregation the Priestly Blessing (“May the Lord Bless You and Keep You…”)–it’s a big deal in the service. Also Cohens can’t enter a cemetery, I think, or touch a corpse. (There’s a fascinating DNA testing of the validity the thousand-year length of time Cohens et al have preserved consistent genetic traits, particularly fascinating because being considered a Cohen was always just a matter of who your father is or claimed to be, a notoriously unregulated heritage tracking system). II: The Levites. The singers, instrumentalists, shit shovelers, butchers, functionaries, and what have you of the Temple. So doff your hat to all your friends named Levy, Levine, Levin, etc, etc. They go up to read the Torah second, or first if nary a Cohen can be found. I can’t think of what else they have to do or not do. III : The Israelites. All the rest of us poor slobs. Now an extra added attraction. I love briefly telling these facts to Jews who have never heard of it (basically all non-Orthodox) and non Jews. We all know Spock’s Vulcan hand-sign, right? That is the received–I don’t know its history, or if Sephardic Jews use it–hand position the cohens use when they raise their arms and say the priestly blessing. None other. Pass by a Jewish cemetery, and you’d wonder why so many people over the centuries with Cohen-y names were Trekkies, based on the engraving artwork. Leonard Nimoy is Jewish and thought it would be cool for Spock. ---
**Author:** ![Indian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@Indian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indian)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/27 "2012-12-24T06:29:08Z")
Leo Bloom@26, Thanks for this information. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/28 "2012-12-24T06:38:31Z")
Women in Saudia Arabia are second-class citizens - even a native-born, full Saudi woman is permanently at a disadvantage. She can not drive. She can not travel without the permission of a male relatives. Etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/29 "2012-12-24T08:09:21Z")
From Wikipedia, but I don’t think the accuracy is in question > [@](#): > > Approximately 2–5 million Ahmadis live in Pakistan[71][72][73][74] and is the home to the largest population of Ahmadis in the world. But it is the only state to have officially declared the Ahmadis to be non-Muslims as they do not regard the Prophet Muhammad to be the final prophet;[66] here their freedom of religion has been curtailed by a series of ordinances, acts and constitutional amendments. In 1974 Pakistan’s parliament adopted a law declaring Ahmadis to be non-Muslims;[75] the country’s constitution was amended to define a Muslim “as a person who believes in the finality of the Prophet Muhammad”.[46] In 1984 General Zia-ul-Haq, the then military ruler of Pakistan, issued Ordinance XX.[76][77] The ordinance, which was supposed to prevent “anti-Islamic activities”, forbids Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim or to “pose as Muslims”. This means that they are not allowed to profess the Islamic creed publicly or call their places of worship mosques.[78] Ahmadis in Pakistan are also barred by law from worshipping in non-Ahmadi mosques or public prayer rooms, performing the Muslim call to prayer, using the traditional Islamic greeting in public, publicly quoting from the Quran, preaching in public, seeking converts, or producing, publishing, and disseminating their religious materials. These acts are punishable by imprisonment of up to three years.[22] In applying for a passport or a national ID card, all Pakistanis are required to sign an oath declaring Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be an impostor prophet and all Ahmadis to be non-Muslims.[59] Because he was an Ahmadi, the word “Muslim” was erased from the gravestone of the Nobel prize winning theoretical physicist Abdus Salam ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/30 "2012-12-24T08:45:23Z")
“Koreans” in Japan fits the OP’s question in every way. A good friend of mine here was born in Japan to Korean family. He will never be eligible to get a Japanese passport and he cannot vote. Korea issues passports to people of Korean nationality born in Japan, so he has a Korean passport, and he gets a permanent resident stamp in his Korean passport that allows him to work and live in Japan permanently but still, he’ll never be able to vote and he’ll never be officially “Japanese”. The ironic thing is as he is trilingual in Korean, Japanese and English he will probably do better in business than the “pure” Japanese, but he still faces official discrimination. Regarding K-Pop in Japan, its changing (slowly). The generation that are in their twenties now don’t have the same prejudices, I think it another 40 years Japan will be a more tolerant open society but it’s going to take another generation. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/31 "2012-12-24T10:07:24Z")
People who live in the countryside in China are restricted in their internal movements are are prohibited from entering into cities unless they have a [Hukou](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system) passport. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/32 "2012-12-24T13:03:37Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > (BTW, “shamus,” with a long a, as in 1940s detective stories/movies, comes from that word). Cite? I was always under the impression that it came from _Seámus_, the Irish (Gaelic) form of James, due to the American stereotypes of Irish cops. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/33 "2012-12-24T13:06:27Z")
Some people in the US are legally above certain laws, such as the president, congressmen and perhaps policemen can be added and that would make the regular public second class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/34 "2012-12-24T13:09:34Z")
> [@montag01](#): > > Is the caste system still significant in India? Perhaps that would count, but I don’t know enough about it to know if those in the lowest caste are actually denied the right to vote, for instance. Dalits form a powerful voting bloc in India. In fact, in India, it’s the affluent who tend to refrain from voting. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/35 "2012-12-24T13:54:28Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > “Koreans” in Japan fits the OP’s question in every way. A good friend of mine here was born in Japan to Korean family. He will never be eligible to get a Japanese passport and he cannot vote. Korea issues passports to people of Korean nationality born in Japan, so he has a Korean passport, and he gets a permanent resident stamp in his Korean passport that allows him to work and live in Japan permanently but still, he’ll never be able to vote and he’ll never be officially “Japanese”. The situation doesn’t fit because Koreans living in Japan aren’t Japanese citizens. That’s why they don’t get passports and cannot vote, not because they’re some kind of special class. As you note, they’re Korean citizens. They _can_ become Japanese citizens if they want to, but it’s a process they have to choose to go through (and many don’t want to give up their Korean citizenship). I know this because my friend’s mother (a third generation zainichi) went through that process. ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/36 "2012-12-24T14:11:31Z")
The Guardian posted a fascinating and disturbing article a week ago about the treatment of the women of a Dalit community in India: > **['Arrest us all': the 200 women who killed a rapist](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/16/india.gender)** > > When hundreds of women descended on Nagpur district court armed with knives, stones and chilli powder, within minutes the man who raped them lay dead. Raekha Prasad reports. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/37 "2012-12-24T15:29:58Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Cite? I was always under the impression that it came from _Seámus_, the Irish (Gaelic) form of James, due to the American stereotypes of Irish cops. [Looks like you both win.](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=shamus&searchmode=none) > [@](#): > > shamus (n.) > “police officer, detective,” 1920, apparently first in “The Shamus,” a detective story published that year by Harry J. Loose (1880-1943), a Chicago police detective and crime writer; the book was marketed as “a true tale of thiefdom and an expose of the real system in crime.” The word is said to be probably from Yiddish, lit. “sexton of a synagogue,” from Heb. shamash “servant;” influenced by Celt. Seamus “James,” as a typical name for an Irish cop. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/38 "2012-12-24T15:44:18Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > “Koreans” in Japan fits the OP’s question in every way. A good friend of mine here was born in Japan to Korean family. He will never be eligible to get a Japanese passport and he cannot vote. Not really. Lots of countries don’t grant citizenship just because you are born there. Look up _jus soli_ and _jus sanguinis_. Your friend was never a citizen of Japan, and so can’t be a 2nd class citizen. The OP is easily answered by those countries that restrict women’s rights. Saudi Arabia comes to mind immediately. Women are indeed 2nd class citizens there. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/39 "2012-12-24T15:44:49Z")
None of the examples are _de jure_ citizens, not even where there is real and unfortunate discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/40 "2012-12-24T15:51:03Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > People who live in the countryside in China are restricted in their internal movements are are prohibited from entering into cities unless they have a [Hukou](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system) passport. Not to mention that citizens of Hong Kong (for instance) have a number of rights that the average mainland Chinese citizen doesn’t have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968.md?page=3)