# Are there any countries with literal second class citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968 "2012-12-24T00:16:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/81 "2013-01-02T13:51:50Z")
How do the Japanese people even identify who is burakumin anyway? They are just the decendants of leather tanners and such, right? What is the discrimination like and how does anybody know if you don’t tell them? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/82 "2013-01-02T15:10:05Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > What is the discrimination like and how does anybody know if you don’t tell them? By address, since there are traditional burakumin neighborhoods. Even if you no longer live in such an area, the Japanese family registry system (koseki) makes it relatively easy to find out where someone’s ancestors lived. So if you have a list of known burakumin/eta settlements/neighborhoods the connection can be made that way. It’s now illegal to obtain a copy of someone else’s koseki, but you used to be able to walk in ask for one or require a job seeker to submit it with their application. The discrimination is generally in terms of marriage, housing, and employment. There used to be systematic discrimination in terms of public funding for burakumin areas, but that ended a while ago. In fact, my impression is that discrimination against the burakumin is no longer a major issue. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/83 "2013-01-02T15:11:39Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > As soon as you can tell me how a fourth-generation ethnic Korean living in Japan, whose ancestors were likely brought over as literal slaves, is in any way analogous to a green card holder. They’re both non-citizen permanent residents. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/84 "2013-01-02T15:28:19Z")
North Korea’s [songbun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun) system comes to mind. One of three classes – _core_, _wavering_, and _hostile_ – iis assigned by the government. Classes are hereditary. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/85 "2013-01-02T15:33:00Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > They’re both non-citizen permanent residents. green card holders can apply for citizenship. i’m guessing the koreans in japan cannot. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/86 "2013-01-02T15:39:28Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > green card holders can apply for citizenship. i’m guessing the koreans in japan cannot. They can. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/87 "2013-01-02T15:47:41Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > They can. so the last three generations just forgot to? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/88 "2013-01-02T16:10:55Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > so the last three generations just forgot to? No. It wouldn’t have really been a viable option for the first couple of generations (much more discrimination then and they would have been less culturally assimilated) but more generally it’s because the Koreans don’t want Japanese citizenship. They don’t want to give up their Korean citizenship and identity. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/89 "2013-01-02T17:00:21Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > By address, since there are traditional burakumin neighborhoods. Even if you no longer live in such an area, the Japanese family registry system (koseki) makes it relatively easy to find out where someone’s ancestors lived. So if you have a list of known burakumin/eta settlements/neighborhoods the connection can be made that way. It’s now illegal to obtain a copy of someone else’s koseki, but you used to be able to walk in ask for one or require a job seeker to submit it with their application. > > The discrimination is generally in terms of marriage, housing, and employment. There used to be systematic discrimination in terms of public funding for burakumin areas, but that ended a while ago. In fact, my impression is that discrimination against the burakumin is no longer a major issue. Are there any _de jure_ restrictions on burakumin? I know there’s some _social_ discrimination and that could bleed over into public officials such as police harassing burakumin or otherwise denying them equal protection that they are entitled to by law, but does Japanese law _specifically provide for official discrimination_? E.g.: Applicant: “I would like a license to practice medicine. Here is my MD degree and proof that I passed the board exams.” Board of Medicine: “You are a Burakumin and Burakumin cannot legally practice medicine independently. You will be issued a restricted license that requires you to be employed by a high-caste physician. Also, be aware that your earnings are subject to the 5% Burakumin penalty that must be paid to the Office of Ethnic Management and Eugenics. Thank you for your cooperation.” This really gets to the heart of my question. Everyone knows that there is de facto discrimination in many, if not most, areas of the world, even in areas that have laws guaranteeing equal protection under the law for all citizens. The law is the theory. Many people have accused police in the US of harassment of black US Citizens on the grounds that they are black. This is supposed to be illegal. There isn’t a law on the books (at least anymore) that says that Black US Citizens have these enumerated restrictions placed on their life, or a law saying that White US Citizens have these additional substantive or procedural legal rights that other US Citizens don’t have. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/90 "2013-01-02T18:52:36Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > snip Thank you. I knew about the Koseki, I wasn’t sure if it was legal for anyone to check it anymore. So in 2012, the only way someone can know you are a burakumin if you don’t tell them is from where you live, because no non-burakumin would live in a buraku neighborhood? Also in 2012 what would the discrimination be like if people DID know? ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/91 "2013-01-03T11:44:50Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Are there any _de jure_ restrictions on burakumin? No. Discrimination on the basis of family origin is unconstitutional in Japan. > [@rogerbox](#): > > Thank you. I knew about the Koseki, I wasn’t sure if it was legal for anyone to check it anymore. So in 2012, the only way someone can know you are a burakumin if you don’t tell them is from where you live, because no non-burakumin would live in a buraku neighborhood? Also in 2012 what would the discrimination be like if people DID know? Non-burakumin live in traditional burakumin neighborhoods now, so current address doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I don’t think anyone could really know you were a burakumin if you didn’t tell them and they didn’t see your koseki. My impression is that discrimination against burakumin today is almost non-existent among the middle-aged and younger. The most typical issue I can think of would be someone’s potential marriage partner’s parents forbidding the match. But I don’t know how likely that would be now. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/92 "2013-01-03T15:03:51Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Are there any _de jure_ restrictions on burakumin? I know there’s some _social_ discrimination and that could bleed over into public officials such as police harassing burakumin or otherwise denying them equal protection that they are entitled to by law, but does Japanese law _specifically provide for official discrimination_? > . Discrimination against Burakumin is unlawful. But it happens. After all, this kind of discrimination can be very hard to prove in court. I used to work at a Burakumin community center, so I’ve seen a bit of it, especially in relation to employment and marriage (or even dating). However, the current Governor of Osaka is (allegedly) a Burakumin so he was popular enough to gain that elected office. And that could be a useful barometer to gauge how the majority of people currently think. On the other hand, so called ‘half-Japanese’ probably get a worse deal though, when it comes to employment chances. I have a few ‘half’ friends around my age (30-40) and although well-educated they don’t get many job offers from the big companies, despite being multilingual. As to the Koreans not wanting to become Japanese. I think it’s less about wanting to retain their Korean heritage (most don’t have any anymore) and more about not wanting to have to pay money and jump through hoops just to be treated equally (Would you want to spend a few months dealing with Japanese and Korean bureaucrats poking through your life?). I went through the process of naturalizing from Korean to Japanese with my wife before we married because, hell it is just easier to naturalize and avoid the potential pitfalls. She was essentially Japanese anyway, not speaking a word of Korean or having any interest in Korean culture. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/93 "2013-01-03T15:24:21Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Baha’is are not allowed to go to university or get business liscenses, or talk openly about their faith in Iran. Which is why, among other reasons, the Baha’i World Centre is in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/94 "2013-01-03T22:17:28Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Which is why, among other reasons, the Baha’i World Centre is in Israel. Actually Baha’is are not allowed to teach the faith in Israel either, I am not sure if it’s voluntary on their part to not take sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict or if it’s government mandated. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/95 "2013-01-03T22:30:15Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Actually Baha’is are not allowed to teach the faith in Israel either, I am not sure if it’s voluntary on their part to not take sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict or if it’s government mandated. According to Wikipedia, for whatever that’s worth, it’s a practice which well predates any Israel/Arab conflict, and appears to have nothing to do with modern Middle Eastern politics, and isn’t even vaguely similar to the situation in Iran. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Uniquely, despite the presence of several hundred volunteer staff in Haifa and `Akká, there is no formal community of Bahá’ís in Israel in the sense that there are no Nineteen Day Feasts, Spiritual Assemblies etc. Additionally, since the days of Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’ís have observed a self-imposed ban on teaching their religion to the local population of Israel. Formal declarations of faith by Israelis are not accepted. In a letter dated 1995, the Universal House of Justice wrote: > > ``` > ...the people in Israel have access to factual information about the Faith, its history and general principles. Books concerning the Faith are available in libraries throughout Israel, and Israelis are welcome to visit the Shrines and the surrounding gardens. However, in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá'u'lláh, Bahá'ís do not teach the Faith in Israel. Likewise, the Faith is not taught to Israelis abroad if they intend to return to Israel. When Israelis ask about the Faith, their questions are answered, but this is done in a manner which provides factual information without stimulating further interest > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/96 "2013-01-04T00:48:28Z")
That’s interesting, I guess I learned the motivations wrong. I have seen a thread started by an Israeli who wanted to become a baha’i and needed advice. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/97 "2013-01-04T09:20:40Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > To what extent is a person’s ethnic classification as Malay, Indian, or Chinese defined in nationality law or elsewhere in the law? If a person’s father is Chinese but their mother is Malay, do they get to choose their ethnic classification or is it automatically assigned based on a rubric? Ethnic Malays are considered _Bumiputra_ (The translation is “Son of the soil”) and eligible for things like cheaper new homes, special investment fund schemes, and preference for Government contracts (if they run a company), among other things. To be classified as _Bumiputra_, one of your parents has to be a Muslim Malay or an Orang Asli (Aboriginal; they are generally from Borneo). A Malay is defined in Section 160 of the Malaysian Constitution as “A person who professes the religion of Islam, habitually speaks the Malay language, conforms to Malay custom and (A) was before [31 August 1957] born in the Federation or in Singapore or born of parents one of whom was born in the Federation or in Singapore, or was on that day domiciled in the Federation or in Singapore; or (B) is the issue [child] of such a person” It’s entirely possible to be ethnically Indian (for example) but still considered a Malay. Also, just to be extra confusing, a Malay and a Malaysian are not the same thing. Malaysian is anyone from Malaysia (which includes Malays, Chinese, Indians and Aborignes) whilst a Malay is someone who meets the description in the Malaysian Constitution. Race in Malaysia are a complicated thing to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/98 "2013-01-04T12:18:32Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Thankfully the Talmud is not Sharia in the State of Israel, but among the religious Jewish body-politic, classes certainly exist \*de jure. \* > > The word “second” or “third” can be too heavily loaded, of course. More like “differently-abled” and distinct. > > The Jews, _to this day_, comprise three classes: > > I: > The Kohens (literally, “priests” in Hebrew). These guys are all nominally descendants of the first High Priest of the Temple, Aaron. In practice, anybody named Cohen, Cohn, Cahn, Kahn, Kahan, Caan–yeah, Sonny!–even that prick Roy Cohn, is a member of the priestly class, and had a right to become the high priest. > > So what does that get them nowadays? The main ones I can remember is that they get to be the first to read or bless the Torah when it is read. This takes place in every Orthodox synagogue. The _sha(h)mus_–in Yiddish, the sexton or beadle (?), the guy who keeps things running-- will either know who they are, or go down the aisles asking if anyone’s a cohen. The standard reply is “no, but I’m working on it.” (BTW, “shamus,” with a long a, as in 1940s detective stories/movies, comes from that word). > > Once a year, on Yom Kippur (for Ashkenazim), Cohens recite to the rest of the congregation the Priestly Blessing (“May the Lord Bless You and Keep You..”)–it’s a big deal in the service. Also Cohens can’t enter a cemetery, I think, or touch a corpse. > > (There’s a fascinating DNA testing of the validity the thousand-year length of time Cohens et al have preserved consistent genetic traits, particularly fascinating because being considered a Cohen was always just a matter of who your father is or claimed to be, a notoriously unregulated heritage tracking system). > > II: > The Levites. The singers, instrumentalists, shit shovelers, butchers, functionaries, and what have you of the Temple. So doff your hat to all your friends named Levy, Levine, Levin, etc, etc. They go up to read the Torah second, or first if nary a Cohen can be found. I can’t think of what else they have to do or not do. > > III : > The Israelites. All the rest of us poor slobs. > > Now an extra added attraction. I love briefly telling these facts to Jews who have never heard of it (basically all non-Orthodox) and non Jews. > > We all know Spock’s Vulcan hand-sign, right? That is the received–I don’t know its history, or if Sephardic Jews use it–hand position the cohens use when they raise their arms and say the priestly blessing. None other. Pass by a Jewish cemetery, and you’d wonder why so many people over the centuries with Cohen-y names were Trekkies, based on the engraving artwork. > > Leonard Nimoy is Jewish and thought it would be cool for Spock. I thought kohens are descended in a maternal line from Aaron, so having the name Cohen just means one of your ancestors was one. By orthodox standards, you’re not even a Jew unless your mom was. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/99 "2013-01-04T13:09:20Z")
What about US nationals? They are second class citizens as they cannot vote or hold public office, while in other ways identical to US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968/100 "2013-01-04T15:26:00Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > However, the current Governor of Osaka is (allegedly) a Burakumin so he was popular enough to gain that elected office. A tiny nitpick: the current _Mayor_ of Osaka. I have close relatives from a burakumin background, and I live very close (5 minutes walk) to a traditional burakumin area, Shinmachi in Matsubara city. It is notable now for several very good and very popular butcher’s shops, which is of course a traditional occupation of burakumin. I would concur that the burakumin do not qualify as an example of second-class citizens. There is no legal or overt discrimination. But the very fact that Mayor Hashimoto’s alleged family background was “outed” by a popular magazine suggests that it is still a problem for some people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-countries-with-literal-second-class-citizens/644968.md?page=6)