# Are there any cultures who (which?) haven't kept dogs as pets? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 12, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466 "2011-08-12T16:18:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/21 "2011-08-15T02:50:29Z")
It’s my understanding that dogs and humans have been living in some sort of symbiotic relationship for up to 12,000 years (by far the oldest “domesticated” animal, predating agriculture by thousands of years), and that there are specific adaptations both species have evolved to accommodate each other. Can someone verify this and perhaps relate specifics? What was the nature of our relationship with dogs in prehistoric times? I assume it was all working dogs and very few “pets”? Does this sort of symbiosis count as “domestication” or is it something more? How have humans specifically evolved to live with dogs? (I am aware of a few of the differences between dogs and wolves, but none of the differences between pre- and post-dog humans.) ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/22 "2011-08-15T02:56:53Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Is this due to a specific prohibition by Mohammed, or is it just a cultural practice? The Quran, like the Christian Bible accepts part of the Jewish Law. I think by the definition there, dogs are among the unclean. Jewish and Muslim dietary rules are similar. I get questions from India about meat free diets for dogs. You can actually buy dog food containing no meat. You can formulate such a diet to meet AAFCO standards, but it isn’t easy. I have no experience with them. In most cases, I give the best answer I can, even if the question makes me roll my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/23 "2011-08-15T03:11:51Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Is this due to a specific prohibition by Mohammed, or is it just a cultural practice? I’m not sure if it is a hard and fast rule either way. My wife’s parents are Muslim, when they moved here from Indonesia they wanted to get a dog to keep as a pet (in the house). Mom asked their imam (here in America), and he said having a pet was perfectly fine as long as one is careful to take care of the pet waste properly, disposing of it promptly without touching it, and washing yourself after handling it. They’ve had two dogs in their house for some time now. Many of their Muslim friends also have pet dogs. It may be more of a Arab cultural thing, but where Islam begins and Arabian culture ends is, let’s just say, a controversial subject among Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/24 "2011-08-15T04:38:26Z")
The only mention of dogs in the Qur’an is in a list of the desired things in life, which includes “well-trained hunting dogs.” The context of the passage is to contrast desire for worldly possessions with spiritual values. However, it still indicates a positive value accorded to dogs. The texts that Muslims cite to prohibit dogs as pets are all from hadiths. This opens said rulings up to dispute. Khaled Abou El Fadl is a professor of Islamic law who owns several dogs as pets and says the prohibitions are based on hadiths that are too weakly supported to have the force of law, and therefore the prohibition is wrong and there’s no problem with having dogs as pets. A _lot_ of what people think are the rules in Islam (e.g., women not being allowed to attend mosques, or people not being allowed to have pets, or even celebrate birthdays or take out insurance) are based on such weak evidence and strained interpretations of poorly-established hadiths. But so many people are vehemently ironclad set in their ways just because they’ve always heard something is so, even though it can’t hold up to even a little questioning or analysis. They don’t question or think for themselves is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/25 "2011-08-15T04:59:18Z")
Caninovore Koreans and Chinese see no problem keeping dogs as pets and giving them all the kindness, care and love pet ownership entails. The ‘dogs’ they do eat are usually a distinct breed called, 黄狗. There have been big scandals when crooks sold companion dogs as dog meat. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/26 "2011-08-15T06:02:39Z")
So, what do you call a North Korean that has more than three dogs? A rancher? :rolleyes: Apologies, if I’ve offended. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/27 "2011-08-15T06:19:02Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > So, what do you call a North Korean that has more than three dogs? > > A rancher? :rolleyes: > > Apologies, if I’ve offended. I hate you so much, everyone in the university library is now staring at me for laughing so hard ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/28 "2011-08-15T06:29:23Z")
> [@ntlwng](#): > > I just finished a stint teaching English in South Korea and there are indeed many dog meat restaurants around. People keep small dogs as pets but I didn’t see any large dogs as pets. Hundreds of farms still exist where they breed dogs and unecessarily kill them for their meat. I don’t care if it’s their culture. It’s barbaric and disgusting! I can’t imagine that the Koreans will take the initiative and ban the practice anytime soon either because it’s very lucrative for the farmers. > > A neighbor of mine bought a dog and killed it right in front of me and a friend. Beyond gruesome (seriously unreal) and one of the most unforgettable moments I had in Korea. Where in Korea were you? You’d never see that in Seoul. You make it sound like this is a common practice, but I’m Korean and I’ve never been to a dog restaurant or seen a dog been butchered. As an aside, keeping a big dog is difficult in Korea because of how crowded the cities are. Still, I’ve seen a few retrievers around our neighborhood in Seoul. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/29 "2011-08-15T06:36:29Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I hate you so much, everyone in the university library is now staring at me for laughing so hard You’re quite welcome. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/30 "2011-08-15T09:25:57Z")
> [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](#): > > I’m not sure if it is a hard and fast rule either way. My wife’s parents are Muslim, when they moved here from Indonesia they wanted to get a dog to keep as a pet (in the house). Mom asked their imam (here in America), and he said having a pet was perfectly fine as long as one is careful to take care of the pet waste properly, disposing of it promptly without touching it, and washing yourself after handling it. They’ve had two dogs in their house for some time now. Many of their Muslim friends also have pet dogs. > > It may be more of a Arab cultural thing, but where Islam begins and Arabian culture ends is, let’s just say, a controversial subject among Muslims. It is indeed an issue of cleanliness - touching a dog will make you “dirty”, meaning that you would need to wash before doing anything religious, and this has transmuted into a general dislike (and often fear) of dogs in Muslim communities. A Muslim friend of my mothers told her that dogs were unclean because they didn’t wash themselves (as cats, who are considered clean) did, but I doubt that is “canonical”. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/31 "2011-08-15T10:42:04Z")
Most of the questions I see from the Middle East or Asia are about Labs or Shepherds. It could be they are specific to those catagories. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/32 "2011-08-15T11:42:06Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It’s my understanding that dogs and humans have been living in some sort of symbiotic relationship for up to 12,000 years (by far the oldest “domesticated” animal, predating agriculture by thousands of years), and that there are specific adaptations both species have evolved to accommodate each other. _15,000_ years according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/33 "2011-08-15T11:55:57Z")
> [@grimpixie](#): > > It is indeed an issue of cleanliness - touching a dog will make you “dirty”, meaning that you would need to wash before doing anything religious, and this has transmuted into a general dislike (and often fear) of dogs in Muslim communities. A Muslim friend of my mothers told her that dogs were unclean because they didn’t wash themselves (as cats, who are considered clean) did, but I doubt that is “canonical”. Being muslim; I find this very difficult to believe. It is always amusing being told about muslim belief by non muslims:rolleyes: Before praying you need to do ablution; it takes about 2 minutes and you need to do the same whether you touched a dog or a cat or a teddy bear for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/34 "2011-08-15T11:57:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _15,000_ years according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog). Some DNA research dates domesticated dogs to [as early as 100,000 years ago](http://www.workingdogweb.com/DogOrigins.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/35 "2011-08-15T16:29:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Being muslim; I find this very difficult to believe. It is always amusing being told about muslim belief by non muslims:rolleyes: > > Before praying you need to do ablution; it takes about 2 minutes and you need to do the same whether you touched a dog or a cat or a teddy bear for that matter. Perhaps they meant that an already-existing valid ablution would be broken by dog-touch. Step 1: Do ablution. Step 2: On the way to pray, pet Fido. Step 3: Repeat Step 1. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/36 "2011-08-15T16:54:21Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > In Saudi it is the Saluki which can be kept for hunting. I will say that most Saudis are fascinated by dogs, especially large ones. My previous dog in Saudi was a Husky - St Bernard cross. Huge dog, blue eyes, very scary looking. Whenever I went somewhere with him the Saudis would be all around him, pushing each other toward him and generally acting like he was a Bengal tiger or the like. > > Testy You kept a Husky-St Bernard in Saudi Arabia?? Do you take a Chihuahua with you when you go into sub zero territories? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/37 "2011-08-15T17:06:07Z")
I seem to recall that many of the Pueblo Indians in the Southwest shunned dogs as pets. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/38 "2011-08-15T17:17:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Moderator Note] > > **Leo Bloom** , this is General Questions. Let’s not get involved in a debate about the nature of the deity; if you wish to do so, open a thread in GQ. No warning issued. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Sure. I didn’t plan to at all, but stick to the Biblical excerpts only as text. As I said, I don’t/didn’t know how to deal with text beyond my input window, so I just copied the whole message of **Fear Itself**. Sorry for the impression otherwise. Ditto to **Fear itself**. [Moderating] Oops, my bad. Because of the formatting I didn’t realize you were just quoting **Fear Itself** , and _he_ was quoting from his own post in GD. I rescind the moderator note to you. (But hey, learn to use the quote tags already 🙂 - Though I realize that because **Fear Itself** put his remarks himself, you couldn’t quote them directly.) Colibri General Questions Moderator PS. I would just reiterate, however, the general request to everyone not to introduce any religious debate into this question. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/39 "2011-08-15T18:31:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Some DNA research dates domesticated dogs to [as early as 100,000 years ago](http://www.workingdogweb.com/DogOrigins.htm). Yeah, I’ve been interested in the date man first started living with dogs for some time, and I’ve seen estimates all over the map, although 12,000 years ago is a new one to me. I’ve seen very firm assertions of 15,000 and 75,000 and 100,000, among other numbers. I guess we’re not very sure. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466/40 "2011-08-15T18:41:19Z")
Mailmen. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-cultures-who-which-havent-kept-dogs-as-pets/592466.md?page=3)