# Are there any decent religious leaders? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263 "2017-09-01T18:25:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/1 "2017-09-01T18:25:58Z")
Famous religious leaders, not Pastor So-and-so down at First Baptist. Joel Osteen refusing to help Houston flood victims (and then caving but asking for donations to offset the costs of doing so) made me think about this. We’ve got Jim Bakker, Mother Theresa, L. Ron Hubbard, Ted Haggard, Peter Popoff, Joseph Smith, Cotton Mather, Mullah Omar, etc. All on the side of “pretty terrible people”. Who is on the “decent people” side? I haven’t heard much bad said about Billy Graham, but I can’t say I’m very familiar with his life and work. Is he one of the good ones? There’s always Jesus, but I was hoping more for living or historical people whose life we have records of outside of their religious texts. I’ve heard all sorts of terrible things about Muhammad, for example, but I’m not sure what if any record we have of him outside of the Quran. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/2 "2017-09-01T18:32:35Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Famous religious leaders, not Pastor So-and-so down at First Baptist. > > Joel Osteen refusing to help Houston flood victims (and then caving but asking for donations to offset the costs of doing so) made me think about this. > > We’ve got Jim Bakker, Mother Theresa, L. Ron Hubbard, Ted Haggard, Peter Popoff, Joseph Smith, Cotton Mather, Mullah Omar, etc. All on the side of “pretty terrible people”. Who is on the “decent people” side? > > **I haven’t heard much bad said about Billy Graham,** but I can’t say I’m very familiar with his life and work. Is he one of the good ones? > > There’s always Jesus, but I was hoping more for living or historical people whose life we have records of outside of their religious texts. I’ve heard all sorts of terrible things about Muhammad, for example, but I’m not sure what if any record we have of him outside of the Quran. He didn’t have the financial scandals like others but he sure kept a lot of the donated money. He doubtless believed that non-Christians were going to Hell but he was diplomatic enough not to be outspoken about it. He’s also the source of VP Pence’s insistence on not being seen with other women. ([Billy Graham rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_rule)) > [@](#): > > The Billy Graham rule is a practice among male Protestant Christian leaders, in which they avoid spending time alone with women to whom they are not married. It is named after Billy Graham, the most notable proponent of the practice. It is adopted as a display of integrity, a means of avoiding sexual temptation, and to avoid any appearance of doing something considered morally objectionable, but has been criticized as being sexist. > > In 1948, Graham held a series of evangelistic meetings in Modesto, California. Together with Cliff Barrows, Grady Wilson, and George Beverly Shea, he resolved then to “avoid any situation that would have even the appearance of compromise or suspicion.” The accountability agreement, which has become known as the “Modesto Manifesto,” covered not only their interactions with women, but also commitments to integrity with respect to finances, their interactions with local churches, and publicity. Since that time, Graham made a point of not travelling, meeting, or eating alone with a woman other than his wife Ruth.Graham biographer Grant Wacker observed that “Over the years Graham received intense media scrutiny, but hardly anyone accused him of violating any of those four principles.” However, by Graham’s own admission he was not an absolutist in the application of the rule that now bears his name: his autobiography relates a lunch meeting with Hillary Clinton that he initially refused on the grounds that he does not eat alone with women other than his wife, but she persuaded him that they could have a private conversation in a public dining room. He also produced Franklin Graham, as big an asshole as Billy wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/3 "2017-09-01T18:38:33Z")
How about the current pope? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/4 "2017-09-01T18:42:01Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How about the current pope? He’s a few baby steps better than those who came before. Which still makes him wildly repressive and behind the times. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/5 "2017-09-01T18:48:40Z")
The Dalai Lama? This works for certain definitions of “religion” and “leader”. Some may even waffle on the “decent”. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/6 "2017-09-01T18:51:14Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > He’s a few baby steps better than those who came before. > > Which still makes him wildly repressive and behind the times. By which I take it that you’re going to be mad at anybody at the head of a traditional religion, regardless of how many babies they personally neglect to kill. Given that, I suppose I should ask who’s currently in charge of those Universal Unitarian guys? I couldn’t stand the place myself (too religious, unsurprisingly), but they _clearly_ hewed to progressive ideals. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/7 "2017-09-01T18:54:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > He also produced Franklin Graham, as big an asshole as Billy wasn’t. Don’t forget the more-obscure but just as repulsive daughter, Anne Graham Lotz. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Call\_Me.Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Call_Me.Tim)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/8 "2017-09-01T19:00:38Z")
Within a Christian tradition, I have a favorable opinion of Archbishop Desmond Tutu. A few of his political stances are arguable, but I would not describe them as indecent. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/9 "2017-09-01T19:21:08Z")
If Jimmy Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart had stuck to the Billy Graham Rule, they would still be respected today as moral leaders. Not by _me_ — but by such people as listen to such folk. I don’t think L. Ron Hubbard counts as a religious leader. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/10 "2017-09-01T19:25:52Z")
And… I see Mr Bakker still prophesies like an ancestral voice: _Televangelist Jim Bakker has warned that Christians would begin a second civil war if President Trump were ever impeached._ **[Think Progress](https://thinkprogress.org/trump-supporters-war-civil-war-0c796c6f6763/)** 2017 08 30 OK. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/11 "2017-09-01T19:54:29Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > I don’t think L. Ron Hubbard counts as a religious leader. If Joseph Smith counts, why not LRH? Do you dispute the status of Scientology as a religion, or something else? Or is it that you distinguish between “founder of a new religion” versus “recognized leader in an established religion”? I was trying to be inclusive. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/12 "2017-09-01T21:13:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If Joseph Smith counts, why not LRH? Do you dispute the status of Scientology as a religion, or something else? Or is it that you distinguish between “founder of a new religion” versus “recognized leader in an established religion”? I was trying to be inclusive. I can’t speak for him, but I personally dispute the status of Scientology as a religion. When Joseph Smith was in charge Mormonism wasn’t a religion _either_, mind you, but it is one now. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/13 "2017-09-01T21:19:52Z")
I’m a fan of [Jim Wallis.](https://sojo.net/biography/jim-wallis) ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/14 "2017-09-01T21:24:37Z")
I don’t particularly enjoy his preaching style, but there is no doubt that the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Michael Curry is a very decent man. [https://www.episcopalchurch.org/staff/most-rev-michael-b-curry](https://www.episcopalchurch.org/staff/most-rev-michael-b-curry) ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/15 "2017-09-01T21:53:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > We’ve got Jim Bakker, Mother Theresa, L. Ron Hubbard, Ted Haggard, Peter Popoff, Joseph Smith, Cotton Mather, Mullah Omar, etc. All on the side of “pretty terrible people”. Who is on the “decent people” side? You’ve already decided who you consider “pretty terrible”, though not all would agree. What is your definition of “decent”? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/16 "2017-09-01T22:47:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If Joseph Smith counts, why not LRH? Do you dispute the status of Scientology as a religion, or something else? Or is it that you distinguish between “founder of a new religion” versus “recognized leader in an established religion”? I was trying to be inclusive. No. Mormonism _is_ a new religion, and the Prophet was a veritable religious leader — although I think it bunk and also think that I wouldn’t leave my wallet in his office. Ignoring the German tendency to consider Dianetics a cult, I just can’t see how it is any more a religion than Calisthenics is. God seems unlikely to require the use of little monitoring machines in His worship, and while Mormonism grants the believer later use of a planet to himself, Scientology has many universes in Space. _**[when a person](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan)** dies—or, in Scientology terms,_ _when a thetan abandons its physical body—they go to a “landing station” on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, “capsule” it, and send it back to Earth to be thrown into the ocean off the coast of California._ Which is cool, because I adore Sea Otters and would gladly float with them in endless bliss. At most it is an occult philosophy like Freemasonry, and like Freemasonry it does not require a God, which rather puts it out of the way of being a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/17 "2017-09-01T23:19:34Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > No. Mormonism _is_ a new religion, and the Prophet was a veritable religious leader — although I think it bunk and also think that I wouldn’t leave my wallet in his office. It’s a bit old now to be calling it new. > [@](#): > > Ignoring the German tendency to consider Dianetics a cult, I just can’t see how it is any more a religion than Calisthenics is. God seems unlikely to require the use of little monitoring machines in His worship, and while Mormonism grants the believer later use of a planet to himself, Scientology has many universes in Space. And the outfits you seem to consider to be “actual religions” proffer everlasting bliss or eternal tortue after death. What difference does their view on an afterlife have on their status, to you, as a religion? > [@](#): > > _**[when a person](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thetan)** dies—or, in Scientology terms,_ _when a thetan abandons its physical body—they go to a “landing station” on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, “capsule” it, and send it back to Earth to be thrown into the ocean off the coast of California._ > > Which is cool, because I adore Sea Otters and would gladly float with them in endless bliss. And it’s off the coast of California! If you’re gong to hang out with the cool critters, of course you should hang out in the coolest place. > [@](#): > > At most it is an occult philosophy like Freemasonry, and like Freemasonry it does not require a God, which rather puts it out of the way of being a religion. You’re mistaken in your description of Freemasonry, although you are correct that it’s not a religion, ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/18 "2017-09-02T00:58:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It’s a bit old now to be calling it new. It’s 1300 years odd younger than that of the other Prophet. > [@](#): > > And the outfits you seem to consider to be “actual religions” proffer everlasting bliss or eternal tortue after death. What difference does their view on an afterlife have on their status, to you, as a religion? Not a lot, since I don’t believe in them. But they don’t _mandate_ subscriptions for bliss, unlike the late L. Ron. > [@](#): > > And it’s off the coast of California! If you’re gong to hang out with the cool critters, of course you should hang out in the coolest place. I’m gonna float away from the run-off points… > [@](#): > > You’re mistaken in your description of Freemasonry, although you are correct that it’s not a religion, It has a great deal of esotericism, and offers a definite path. They do require an initial statement of belief in a creator, but after that God is left to His Own devices. And again, they require dues, but generously seem to waive them if needed, something alien to Scientology. Which apparently dislikes being owed and likes money in advance for ministrations. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/19 "2017-09-02T01:29:17Z")
Technically speaking Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is head of the Church of England and she’s widely regarded as a decent person, so I’d say she counts. [Justin Welby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Welby), the Archbishop of Canterbury, appears to be a decent chap with many progressive views as well. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/20 "2017-09-02T01:31:05Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I haven’t heard much bad said about Billy Graham, but I can’t say I’m very familiar with his life and work. Is he one of the good ones? Billy Graham had some controversy concerning his talks with then Presidential Richard Nixon and the antisemitic views that Nixon was spewing on about the Jews owning the media and were of Satan and which the best I recall he seemed to be agreeing with him or he wasn’t trying to tell him differently. When the Nixon tapes were released, it confirmed what Graham had denied for years. Graham then apologized, saying he really didn’t recall such a conversation. Years later, more tapes were released and it was more of the same, and I believe Graham apologizing and not recalling that conversation either. My best guess, is that Graham probably wasn’t antisemitic, and was actually pro-Israel since he expressed this view in public on numerous occasions. I think he must have found Nixon intimidating as hell, and just wasn’t able to stand up to him. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263.md?page=2)