# Are there any decent religious leaders? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263 "2017-09-01T18:25:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/101 "2017-09-10T18:16:38Z")
> [@SteveEmcee](#): > > What you are seeing there is not people changing their values to be more socially conscious or whatever, it’s because it is simply easier to live according to the climate of the society and the religion itself probably plays a very small role in their lives The religious leaders change their minds as well. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/102 "2017-09-10T18:48:48Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And where does that leave the Pope, who also seems to be pissing off people from both sides with his words, but has yet to do much of action one way or the other? Or am I mistaken there? What has he actually done besides improve the Church’s PR after the last Pope that everyone hated stepped down? > > \ > > Anyway, I didn’t want anyone to think I had already “made up my mind”. This isn’t really a “bash religion” thread. Fight my ignorance, please. It’s hard to not see it that way when one of your examples is referring to Benedict as a “Pope that everyone hated”. Our pastor worked with him and says he is the most intelligent man he ever met. He had a more serious mien that Francis in his speaking but was hardly hateful. Yes, the Pope is Catholic and can hardly be called not decent because he is true to the faith he was called to love and be a minister of. If you disagree with that faith, it doesn’t make him not decent. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/103 "2017-09-10T19:35:26Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > It’s hard to not see it that way when one of your examples is referring to Benedict as a “Pope that everyone hated”. Our pastor worked with him and says he is the most intelligent man he ever met. He had a more serious mien that Francis in his speaking but was hardly hateful. Yes, the Pope is Catholic and can hardly be called not decent because he is true to the faith he was called to love and be a minister of. If you disagree with that faith, it doesn’t make him not decent. Question for everyone like gigi who thinks my standards are unreasonable: How many people that think that you and your friends don’t deserve basic civil rights do you consider ‘decent’? It’s easy to say ‘oh, that’s just his faith’ when the indecent stuff is directed at someone who’s just an other. But if someone’s faith was that YOUR marriage was invalid and should be nullified, that you shouldn’t be allowed to use public restrooms, and that your kids should be locked away and tortured until they are cool with having sex with someone of the same gender, would you be willing to say that they’re decent and that all of that is just “oh, well I disagree with his faith, but that doesn’t mean he’s not decent!” ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/104 "2017-09-10T19:50:28Z")
Remember according to Benedict gay people are “intrinsically disordered” and non Catholics are “gravely deficient.” What’s not to love? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/105 "2017-09-10T21:09:05Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Question for everyone like gigi who thinks my standards are unreasonable: How many people that think that you and your friends don’t deserve basic civil rights do you consider ‘decent’? It’s easy to say ‘oh, that’s just his faith’ when the indecent stuff is directed at someone who’s just an other. But if someone’s faith was that YOUR marriage was invalid and should be nullified, that you shouldn’t be allowed to use public restrooms, and that your kids should be locked away and tortured until they are cool with having sex with someone of the same gender, would you be willing to say that they’re decent and that all of that is just “oh, well I disagree with his faith, but that doesn’t mean he’s not decent!” My point is, you have a problem with Catholicism itself, not with these leaders in particular. And that’s not the question in the OP. At least I don’t think so, but it’s hard to know what the goal was. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/106 "2017-09-10T21:48:15Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Regarding some of those suggested as ‘decent’ religious leaders: > > Pope Francis, prior to becoming Pope, was criticized for his cooperation with the secret police repression while he was a Cardinal. Families of those dragged away by the secret police and never seen again didn’t consider his actions very Christ-like. > > Bishop Tutu was a leader of the African Nation Congress, when they were using terror tactics against the apartheid government of South Africa. Which was using worse terror tactics against them. I’d call this one justified revolution, but I suppose those killed or injured by the attacks wouldn’t agree. Francis has been criticized for not being sufficiently vocal against the ruling junta. Do you have a citation for him having actually worked with the regime? Again, do you have a citation for Tutu being an active leader of the ANC during the period when terror tactics were used? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/107 "2017-09-10T22:06:16Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Yes, the Pope is Catholic and can hardly be called not decent because he is true to the faith he was called to love and be a minister of. If you disagree with that faith, it doesn’t make him not decent. The fact that he is following faith-based principles does not give him a free pass. If he espoused exactly the same views but they came from a political conviction would you have any problem with us judging him? He is free to choose his beliefs and free to speak his mind and act accordingly just as I am and I am entitled to criticise accordingly. The followers of ISIS are extremely devout, they follow the faith that they were “called” to so I assume you give them the same latitude as the pope? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/108 "2017-09-10T22:16:47Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > My point is, you have a problem with Catholicism itself, not with these leaders in particular. And that’s not the question in the OP. At least I don’t think so, but it’s hard to know what the goal was. I don’t think that those points are limited to the catholic church, I’d be interested myself to know how you’d feel in the situations described by **Pantastic**. Feel free to insert any other religious group that holds similar views (plenty to choose from) ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/109 "2017-09-11T02:02:21Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > It’s hard to not see it that way when one of your examples is referring to Benedict as a “Pope that everyone hated”. Our pastor worked with him and says he is the most intelligent man he ever met. He had a more serious mien that Francis in his speaking but was hardly hateful. Yes, the Pope is Catholic and can hardly be called not decent because he is true to the faith he was called to love and be a minister of. If you disagree with that faith, it doesn’t make him not decent. I don’t know where this purported opposition between “good Francis” and “bad Benedict” came from (or conversely, for some conservatives, “good Benedict” and “bad Francis”). Pope Benedict and Pope Francis differed in some of their personal behavior and in their pastoral style, but they were both thoroughly orthodox and neither of them changed any items of Catholic doctrine, as far as I know. I don’t know if you could point out a single item of _doctrine_ where Francis and Benedict disagreed. For what it’s worth, I’m not Catholic, but I really liked both Benedict and Francis. (John Paul, much less so). ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/110 "2017-09-11T13:49:52Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > My point is, you have a problem with Catholicism itself, not with these leaders in particular. And that’s not the question in the OP. At least I don’t think so, but it’s hard to know what the goal was. You’re simply wrong about that. I have a problem with the leaders in particular because they embrace the idea of hurting the people close to me. I do not consider someone who works to hurt my friends to be a ‘decent human being’, and am amazed that people think that’s an unreasonable standard for ‘decent human being’. “Would me and the people close to me be able to live their lives if this leader was allowed to lead the community where we live” seems like quite a reasonable standard to use. The fact that they justify their hostile beliefs with religion doesn’t change that they are hostile in the first place. And your claim that I’m not addressing the OP is also simply wrong. The OP asked “Who is on the “decent people” side?”, and I explicitly answered that question. I pointed out that “You have to define ‘decent’ human being before you can really answer the question,” and explicitly pointed out that I was using my standards with “I don’t see how they’d qualify as decent to me.” I will also note that none of the people arguing that my definition of ‘decent person’ is unfair have come up with a definition that is formed in a different way - they will use issues important to them instead of me, and harm to people they care about instead of people I care about, but ultimately arrive at a standard through the same process. I also note that you didn’t answer the question I asked. Are there any religious leaders that want to hurt you, your family, your friends, and/or your children that you consider ‘decent’ in spite of that? If a religious leader wanted to lock up and torture your kids until they turned gay (like conversion therapy, in the other direction) would you be willing to say that they are a decent person as long as the motive for the torture was because of their religion? They’re pretty simple questions. I mean, like Novelty Bubble pointed out you should be able to point to some ISIS leaders that you think are decent even though they want to do horrible things to your family if you apply the standard of ‘it doesn’t count against the leader if it’s because of religion’ is really what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/111 "2017-09-11T16:38:46Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I also note that you didn’t answer the question I asked. Are there any religious leaders that want to hurt you, your family, your friends, and/or your children that you consider ‘decent’ in spite of that? If a religious leader wanted to lock up and torture your kids until they turned gay (like conversion therapy, in the other direction) would you be willing to say that they are a decent person as long as the motive for the torture was because of their religion? They’re pretty simple questions. I mean, like Novelty Bubble pointed out you should be able to point to some ISIS leaders that you think are decent even though they want to do horrible things to your family if you apply the standard of ‘it doesn’t count against the leader if it’s because of religion’ is really what you believe. I could say nobody in the Catholic church wants to hurt anybody, and you wouldn’t believe me. What is the point?? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/112 "2017-09-11T17:11:13Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I could say nobody in the Catholic church wants to hurt anybody, and you wouldn’t believe me. What is the point?? Of course I wouldn’t believe you, because the claim is contradicted by easily observed facts in multiple ways. For example, Catholic doctrine explicitly calls for hurting people close to me, as you’ve agreed earlier in this thread. They explicitly want to deny human rights to my friends, and feel that another should have either been jailed or forced to act as an incubator for her rapist’s baby, both of which I consider hurting somebody. Beyond that, the Catholic church is a large enough organization that it completely defies belief to claim that no one in it wants to hurt anyone- there are convicted murderers, rapists, and child molestors in the Catholic church, do they just not count? Any organization with millions of people is going to have some people in it that wants to hurt people, the claim that a particular organization doesn’t is just absurd. Also, how does your definition of ‘nobody in X wants to hurt anyone’ work with other large religious organizations - ISIS believes that they are doing God’s work and saving people, for example, so would you make the same claim about them and expect me to believe it? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/113 "2017-09-11T17:31:10Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I could say nobody in the Catholic church wants to hurt anybody, and you wouldn’t believe me. What is the point?? 😕 Does pedophilia count as “not hurting anybody” or do pedophile priests not count as “in the Catholic church”? Or is it like, “They did it, but they didn’t _want_ to”? I’m trying hard to see how “nobody in the Catholic church wants to hurt anybody” could be remotely true, but I just can’t. That’s not even getting into their desire for women and gay people to return to being second-class citizens. And I wasn’t raised Catholic, but most of my extended family is Catholic. I have a few nuns in the family. They’re all “decent” people, at least. I started this thread because I saw so many religious leaders in the news who are actively pieces of shit. So “decent” in my mind means “not a piece of shit”. I can have political differences with someone and still consider them “decent”. It’s not about that. But **Pantastic** makes a lot of sense too. The current Pope may not have actively defrauded people or started a literal witch hunt, but he still oversees an organization that promotes, as mentioned, the return of women and gay people to second-class status. Or maybe worse, going by the history of the Church. So I’m torn. I want to say political differences don’t matter, but there’s an element of “you’re in charge of this organization, you could stop advocating these harmful policies at the stroke of a pen, and yet you don’t.” But political differences does seem to be in a separate category from true pieces of shit like Peter Popoff who prey on the sick and grieving. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/114 "2017-09-11T18:21:23Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I could say nobody in the Catholic church wants to hurt anybody, and you wouldn’t believe me. What is the point?? “I don’t want to hurt you. I’m just going to subject you to this inhumane, traumatizing therapy to try to change your sexuality, and when it inevitably fails, I’ll brand you a sinner and convince the community to ostracize you. And it’s not my fault if that message _somehow_ gets turned into a message of ‘we should kill that fag’.” ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/115 "2017-09-11T18:23:41Z")
OK, this is all I can say about it. “Are there any decent religious leaders?” to me meant, here are some individuals who exhibited scandalous behavior while the leader of a religious organization - stole, committed adultery, visited prostitutes, etc. Who has If you then turn it into, who leads a religious group or denomination whose beliefs I agree with?, that’s a different question. To answer some of the specifics: - Of course a pedophile, non-chaste person, embezzler, drug-pusher, etc., who is a religious leader is not a decent one. That falls under my initial understanding of the question. - Yes, the Catholic Church defines marriage as one man, one woman and considers any sex outside of marriage to be non-chaste. We all have crosses to bear and this is one for some people. While the Church doesn’t agree with same sex marriage secularly, it will go forward as has divorce and remarriage, abortion, the death penalty, etc. - No, the Church does not engage in conversion therapy. - Yes, the Church is pro-life beginning at conception, even in cases of rape. Again, if anyone who is faithful to the Church is by definition not decent, then make the blanket statement and there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/116 "2017-09-11T19:47:04Z")
Most people have good things to say about Mr. Rogers. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/117 "2017-09-11T19:55:05Z")
I’m a fan of both the current presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church (the American offshoot of the Church of England) and his predecessor, who are both smart, kind, spiritual, talented people from all I’ve seen: > **[Michael Curry (bishop)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Curry_(bishop))** > > Michael Bruce Curry (born March 13, 1953) is an American bishop who is the 27th and current presiding bishop and primate of The Episcopal Church. Elected in 2015, he is the first African American to serve as presiding bishop in The Episcopal Church. He was previously bishop of the Diocese of North Carolina. > Curry noted in his autobiography that both sides of his family were descended from slaves and sharecroppers in North Carolina and Alabama. He was born in Maywood, Illinois, a suburb just west... > **[Katharine Jefferts Schori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Jefferts_Schori)** > > Katharine Jefferts Schori (born March 26, 1954) is the former Presiding Bishop and Primate of the Episcopal Church of the United States. Previously elected as the 9th Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Nevada, she was the first woman elected as a primate in the Anglican Communion. Jefferts Schori was elected at the 75th General Convention on June 18, 2006, and invested at Washington National Cathedral on November 4, 2006, and continued until November 1, 2015, when Michael Bruce Curry was invest... ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/118 "2017-09-11T19:56:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Most people have good things to say about Mr. Rogers. I’ve never heard anything to suggest he wasn’t a decent human being. The questionable part is whether he counts as a religious leader. (He was a Presbyterian minister, but that’s not what he’s known for.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/119 "2017-09-11T20:34:13Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > “I don’t want to hurt you. I’m just going to subject you to this inhumane, traumatizing therapy to try to change your sexuality, and when it inevitably fails, I’ll brand you a sinner and convince the community to ostracize you. And it’s not my fault if that message _somehow_ gets turned into a message of ‘we should kill that fag’.” The Catholic Church does not subject gay people to conversion therapy. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263/120 "2017-09-11T21:24:40Z")
The Sikh Guru Nanak advocated equal rights for women, which I’d say was extraordinarily decent of him, seeing how he did it in the 15th century. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-decent-religious-leaders/795263.md?page=7)