# Are there any figures once thought to be mythical, whose historicity was later proved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382 "2015-01-30T23:31:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/21 "2015-01-31T22:44:00Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > If we can include animals, I think the platypus and Komodo dragon count (though in the case of the platypus, it wasn’t seen as a myth so much as just a hoax). It doesn’t quite fit the question in the OP but I like the story of the [coelacanth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelacanth). It’s a fish that was believed to have gone extinct millions of years ago. But during the twentieth century a fisherman in South Africa caught one and a local scientist recognized it among his catch. (The first time I heard this story, the fish was supposedly spotted in a local fish market.) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/22 "2015-01-31T23:22:51Z")
Continuing the semi-hijack, [the duckbill platypus was apparently once thought to be a hoax](http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/Platypus) by people who didn’t live in the regions where it is endemic, but only fairly briefly. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/23 "2015-02-01T02:04:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Well, there are LOTS of reputable historians who’ll tell you, “I believe the legends of King Arthur were probably based on a real warrior chieftain in or around Cornwall.” And there are many who’d tell you, “I believe the legends of Robin Hood were based on a real bandit active in the Nottingham area.” But there’s been no archaeological evidence to prove either conjecture. > > IF such evidence ever surfaces, we can add them to a list for the OP. Yes, there is a book written in the 800s by a monk called “Historia Brittonum” that chronicled the best known history of the Britons (pre-Anglo Saxon peoples of England, who spoke a Celtic language and who were ultimately pushed out of England but somewhat left in Wales/Cornwall) as it was known in the 800s. This book details the Battle of Badon (or Battle of Mt Badon) fought purportedly around 500, in which Britons defeated the Anglo-Saxons and for a time kept their advance at bay. It’s noted that the leader of the Britons was a leader named Arthur. That’s I think the full weight of historical support for a leader who might be Arthur. But Historia Brittonum is a book written 300 years later, based on almost no written histories or decent evidence and which thus probably was telling the best known oral legends that still existed from that time–perhaps a grain of truth was in them (hey, there was a grain of truth to the Iliad.) So little is verifiable in all of this that it should be noted there is no evidence at all the battle itself ever happened, let alone that a great warrior named Arthur was the leader of the Britons. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/24 "2015-02-01T14:33:37Z")
I believe the myth of the Golden Fleece has merit here. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/25 "2015-02-01T16:25:59Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Well, there are LOTS of reputable historians who’ll tell you, “I believe the legends of King Arthur were probably based on a real warrior chieftain in or around Cornwall.” And there are many who’d tell you, “I believe the legends of Robin Hood were based on a real bandit active in the Nottingham area.” But there’s been no archaeological evidence to prove either conjecture. > > IF such evidence ever surfaces, we can add them to a list for the OP. It is widely accepted that the chief root of the Arthur legend is a figure mentioned by the historian Gildas, writing around forty years after the events. That’s about as solid as you get for the period. The name “Arthur” was swapped in later (and again, we can see who did this and how), and the “King” part later still, so in once sense it is crystal clear that there never was a King Arthur (and certainly not in Cornwall), and in another sense there’s no doubt about the historicity of the central figure, though again, not in Cornwall. Cornwall contributes Tintagel and the coincidental but intriguing early name Artognou, found on a stone from the right period. -gnou cannot become -ur, though, so it whoever he was, he wasn’t Arthur. And the historians of Robin Hood look to south Yorkshire, not Nottingham. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/26 "2015-02-01T16:34:01Z")
> [@FluffyBob](#): > > Really? Who is this thought by? Any of them actual marine biologists? Do they ever come near the surface alive? Can a giant squid even reach a tentacle out of water? They seem to have similar out of water characteristics as a jellyfish - deflated bags of goo. They are not really all that big from the pictures I have seen either; they are long but not ship attacking big. Have you ever seen an actual squid? They’re a lot more solid than jellyfish. Yes, they can reach out. Yes, marine biologists are proposing them as the model for the Kraken. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/27 "2015-02-01T16:37:16Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Many historians believe King Arthur was based on a real person. I remain skeptical. > I’ve seen articles claiming that Robin Hood was based on a real person, but I’m not sure if any reputable historian believes this. How do you explain their flours? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/28 "2015-02-01T16:40:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Have you ever seen an actual squid? They’re a lot more solid than jellyfish. Yes, they can reach out. Yes, marine biologists are proposing them as the model for the Kraken. Mythologists, however, aren’t on board. Why should monsters have to be representations of biological reality when human beings have the ability to extrapolate imaginatively from whales and things? Why should the Kraken have a basis in a sea animal, but not the Greek Keto? The Greeks didn’t have the same experience with the ocean. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/29 "2015-02-01T16:45:43Z")
😕 Some of the real big catches have been in the Med. Are you saying that the Greeks somehow managed to island-and-peninsula-hop without getting on boats? The existence of [Sancho VII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sancho_VII_of_Navarre) the Strong of Navarre was never in doubt, but his size and the story of [his actions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8036707&postcount=86) at the battle of [Las Navas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa) were. The fact that he recorded them with “what the women say” as his only source (and giving the source, which nobody at the time did) had Don Carlos, first [Prince of Viana](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles,_Prince_of_Viana), seen as a laughingstock by other historians. Finds of written documents from other kingdoms involved in that battle, and a forensic study on his bones which proved that the descriptions were accurate, match “what the women say”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/30 "2015-02-01T16:53:23Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > 😕 Some of the real big catches have been in the Med. Are you saying that the Greeks somehow managed to island-and-peninsula-hop without getting on boats? No. Are you saying there are giant squid in the Mediterranean? Edit for clarity—no one has said that the Greek sea monsters were based on the giant squid, but positing that mythical monsters are based on specimens of one species that are rare even in the modern day seems less likely than imaginative extrapolation from commoner animals of many speicies. ---
**Author:** ![cmdrpiffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b4bc9f/32.png) [@cmdrpiffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmdrpiffle)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/31 "2015-02-01T17:04:18Z")
Leif Garrett was just a myth, right? Leif Garrett is now thought to have actually existed. More than several 55 year old women have reported seeing/remembering faded copies of Tiger Beat Magazine and old albums. Far too many to discount the myth entirely anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/32 "2015-02-01T19:21:57Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Le_ **i** _f Erickson There was never any doubt about him. I watched him in The High Chapparel every day after school when I was a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/33 "2015-02-01T19:46:40Z")
Test ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/34 "2015-02-01T21:35:15Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > I believe the myth of the Golden Fleece has merit here. That’s probably referring to reports like [this](http://www.sciencealert.com/new-evidence-suggests-jason-and-the-golden-fleece-was-based-on-true-events). The most you can say about this is, um, maybe. The argument rests on an assumption that an actual voyage - one single voyage, not a centuries-long prosaic trading tradition - from a thousand years earlier than the myth could be remembered in some fashion. And you have to scrape away the complications of the mythic story that obviously have [myriads of metaphoric interpretations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Fleece#Main_theories) to say that its based on any one reality. I’m dubious about all such claims of historic reality. It’s one thing to find the remains of a city. I’ve no doubt Troy was real. Any stories that purport to be based in that city are next-to-impossible to pin down. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/35 "2015-02-02T01:18:49Z")
In parallel to the squid/kraken issue, it appears that many stories regarding giant cyclops, in the Mediterranean, have appeared in the same general areas where the majority of mammoth skeletons have been found. [http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/greek-giants](http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/greek-giants) Similarly, the convergence of the descriptions of griffins and the skeletons of protoceratops along with most of the Greek tales of griffins indicating a “home” in the general area where such skeletons have been found suggests a link, there. [http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/griffin-bones](http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/griffin-bones) ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/36 "2015-02-02T02:14:53Z")
> [@FluffyBob](#): > > Really? Who is this thought by? Any of them actual marine biologists? Do they ever come near the surface alive? Can a giant squid even reach a tentacle out of water? They seem to have similar out of water characteristics as a jellyfish - deflated bags of goo. They are not really all that big from the pictures I have seen either; they are long but not ship attacking big. This guy gets along pretty well watch for a bit and he drops a crab he was dragging. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/37 "2015-02-02T03:10:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > In parallel to the squid/kraken issue, it appears that many stories regarding giant cyclops, in the Mediterranean, have appeared in the same general areas where the majority of mammoth skeletons have been found. [http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/greek-giants](http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/greek-giants) I’m not following this argument. How does finding the skeleton of a large quadruped with elephant tusks and two eye holes in the skull lead to a legend of a large biped with one eye? ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/38 "2015-02-02T03:18:37Z")
[That hole in the middle was thought to be an eye socket.](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=643&q=mammoth+skull+cyclops&oq=mamoth+skull&gs_l=img.1.2.0i10l6j0i5i10l2.1929.12549.0.17163.14.14.0.0.0.0.240.1908.1j9j2.12.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.61.img..2.12.1887.REMMZaeSc-A#imgdii=_&imgrc=tYbZDkrfhRaiQM%253A%3BCnI6Zx2cSNBkWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.users.globalnet.co.uk%252F~loxias%252Fodyssey%252Fskull01.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.users.globalnet.co.uk%252F~loxias%252Fcyclops02.htm%3B173%3B216) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/39 "2015-02-02T04:45:36Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > [That hole in the middle was thought to be an eye socket.](https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=643&q=mammoth+skull+cyclops&oq=mamoth+skull&gs_l=img.1.2.0i10l6j0i5i10l2.1929.12549.0.17163.14.14.0.0.0.0.240.1908.1j9j2.12.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.61.img..2.12.1887.REMMZaeSc-A#imgdii=_&imgrc=tYbZDkrfhRaiQM%253A%3BCnI6Zx2cSNBkWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.users.globalnet.co.uk%252F~loxias%252Fodyssey%252Fskull01.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.users.globalnet.co.uk%252F~loxias%252Fcyclops02.htm%3B173%3B216) Still skeptical, because the people who brought us the word “elephant” and who regularly butchered animals were unlikely to be severly confused by a mammoth skull. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382/40 "2015-02-02T06:18:33Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Still skeptical, because the people who brought us the word “elephant” and who regularly butchered animals were unlikely to be severly confused by a mammoth skull. They didn’t encounter elephants until the very end of the Classical period when Alexander brought them back from India, though. And can you think of any other animal skull that has a gigantic nasal passage that’s _above_ the eyes? I’d think familiarity with the skulls of common game and livestock would only make a mammoth/elephant skull all the more perplexing. The evidence for the theory is all circumstantial, but it seems more or less plausible. Especially if you just say they “inspired” the myth, not that the Greeks believed they were literally cyclops skulls (and then did this :smack: when the first of Alexander’s elephants died.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-figures-once-thought-to-be-mythical-whose-historicity-was-later-proved/711382.md?page=3)