# Are there any government activities so secret that even the president doesn't know about them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 18, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319 "2011-05-18T14:27:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/41 "2011-05-20T00:32:06Z")
This applies to Vice Presidents but when Harry Truman became POTUS, they had to brief him on the atomic bomb that was in development. Granted he had only been Veep for three months but you would figure FDR at some point would tell his possible replacement that we are spending a lot of money to build a super weapon that could end the war early. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/42 "2011-05-20T00:44:19Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > This applies to Vice Presidents but when Harry Truman became POTUS, they had to brief him on the atomic bomb that was in development. Granted he had only been Veep for three months but you would figure FDR at some point would tell his possible replacement that we are spending a lot of money to build a super weapon that could end the war early. If they’re building a new doomsday device right now you think anyone is telling Joe about it? I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/43 "2011-05-20T16:24:47Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > If they’re building a new doomsday device right now you think anyone is telling Joe about it? > > I wouldn’t. LOL! I could totally seem him as _that_ guy in a movie, the one who just hhhaaaaaas to push the red button they told him to avoid. . . ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/44 "2011-05-21T02:06:13Z")
Following Oakminster, DARPA probably has a number of small, inconsequential (ha!) programs that the President hasn’t heard of. I trust that SETI has received indirect government funding from time to time, and these line items may not have been uniformly called to the President’s attention. Furthermore, the national archives has probably received a number of requests that they’ve had difficulty with. I see story potential, involving moles, bean counters and of course an independently funded Cabal. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/45 "2011-05-21T02:56:09Z")
So what happens when Presidents leave office? Do they have to somehow… _forget_ all the classified information they’ve been exposed to? ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/46 "2011-05-21T16:28:25Z")
…midget Cosmonauts??? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/47 "2011-05-22T00:55:43Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > …midget Cosmonauts??? Collective Farm name! ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/48 "2011-05-22T01:05:11Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > So what happens when Presidents leave office? Do they have to somehow… _forget_ all the classified information they’ve been exposed to? That’s what the flashy-thing is for. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/49 "2011-05-22T01:29:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Following Oakminster, DARPA probably has a number of small, inconsequential (ha!) programs that the President hasn’t heard of. I trust that SETI has received indirect government funding from time to time, and these line items may not have been uniformly called to the President’s attention. Furthermore, the national archives has probably received a number of requests that they’ve had difficulty with. I see story potential, involving moles, bean counters and of course an independently funded Cabal. I would have no way to prove it, but I suspect that you’re on the right track. I would imagine that the NSA may have or may develop some secrets that are so sensitive that not even the President of the United States or any particular high ranking General is entitled to know it. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/50 "2011-05-22T01:43:39Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I’d be surprised if such a list even existed in a single place. There are no doubt CIA personnel who know the identity of one or a few agents, but I sincerely doubt there’s a piece of paper or excel spreadsheet or anything that just lists them all in alphabetical order. Why not? It’s gotta be written down somewhere, otherwise what happens if someone forgets a detail, like a name or an address? I really doubt that in real life, these guys are as dramatic and paranoid as in the movies. It’s probably sitting in some guy’s computer right now, in the ‘My Documents’, with a sub folder named ‘CIA agent names’ ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/51 "2011-05-22T02:56:29Z")
Who does the president ask and how does he phrase the question. Okay, a week or a month or two goes by. Prez has the basics (lock on the WH bathroom, emergency phone numbers) down and it’s a slow news week. Or maybe it’s the first day. I don’t care who you imagine–Nixon, Clinton, Bush(es), Obama… Does he call in the head of the CIA and order him to “wow” him? Then call the FBI and say “okay, now that the brief is over, dish me out some good stuff–waddaya know?” Call DARPA and demand to see the really _really_ cool stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/52 "2011-05-22T11:13:06Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > I would imagine that the NSA may have or may develop some secrets that are so sensitive that not even the President of the United States or any particular high ranking General is entitled to know it. Enough with the speculation. As has been stated a dozen times already, the President is entitled to see everything. The Constitution invests all Executive power in the Prssident, and the Constitution trumps what some person at the NSA would, in your imagination, prefer to do. In fact, folks I have met who work in the intelligence community tend to be psyched when something they are working on gets to be briefed at the White House. (But it is indeed true that just because someone is a four star general, doesn’t mean they have a need to know everything.) > [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Who does the president ask and how does he phrase the question. … > > Does he call in the head of the CIA and order him to “wow” him? Then call the FBI and say “okay, now that the brief is over, dish me out some good stuff–waddaya know?” Call DARPA and demand to see the really _really_ cool stuff? First of all, the process of briefing a president on classified matters begins when they are a candidate. The scope of those classified briefs are classified, of course, but they seem to be reasonably detailed about current events. The briefs appear to get more detailed after the election, but even before the swearing in. > **[Obama To Get Top Secret CIA Briefing](https://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=6191835)** > > President-elect will be briefed on al Qaeda, Iraq, and Iran. In any case, if the President wants more info on something, even if he isnt exactly sure what he wants, he would probably just have his National Security Advisor or the staff of the NSC call whatever agency is involved. There’s every reason to believe that White House staff which cover various issues would be read in to whatever compartmented programs they would have a need to know for their particular portfolios, too. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/53 "2011-05-22T11:29:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > First of all, the process of briefing a president on classified matters begins when they are a candidate. The scope of those classified briefs are classified, of course, but they seem to be reasonably detailed about current events. The briefs appear to get more detailed after the election, but even before the swearing in. > > [Obama To Get Top Secret CIA Briefing - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=6191835) > > In any case, if the President wants more info on something, even if he isnt exactly sure what he wants, he would probably just have his National Security Advisor or the staff of the NSC call whatever agency is involved. There’s every reason to believe that White House staff which cover various issues would be read in to whatever compartmented programs they would have a need to know for their particular portfolios, too. I got the impression that the OP wasn’t asking about (relatively) mundane classified information. Sure he’s kept up to date, in the loop, and well informed about all sorts of important things. But what about the _cool_ things? I was daydreaming about the conversation. “Hey Panetta, before you go, I want to ask you a couple things…” How would _you_ phrase the question? Say you and Panetta are out golfing, so there’s no official business to be conducted at the moment and everything is running smoothly. Do you go down a list? Just tell him to blow your freakin’ mind? And who else would you call and what would you ask them? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/54 "2011-05-22T11:40:55Z")
The President would probably start by asking to be briefed on an agency’s special access programs. > **[Special access program](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_access_program)** > > Special access programs (SAPs) in the U.S. Federal Government are security protocols that provide highly classified information with safeguards and access restrictions that exceed those for regular (collateral) classified information. SAPs can range from black projects to routine but especially-sensitive operations, such as COMSEC maintenance or presidential transportation support. In addition to collateral controls, a SAP may impose more stringent investigative or adjudicative requirements, spec... ---
**Author:** ![Free\_Sample](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce73a5/32.png) [@Free\_Sample](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Free_Sample)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/55 "2011-05-24T02:20:16Z")
You guys have too much faith in the “system”. The president will be told what he “needs to know”. They won’t sit him down and explain to him every single crime to humanity the cia/military has committed. Why would they? Because he’s the “commander in chief” ? … what is this, a holywood flick? NO! it’s reality,… and in reality, they LIE like a mofu! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319/56 "2011-05-24T03:35:59Z")
Yes, of course people hide information from their bosses all the time. That doesn’t mean the President isn’t authorized to see certain secret documents, only that people lie and cheat. Or that if the President says, “Tell me what crimes you’ve committed recently, Leon”, that Panetta is going to come up with a list on the spot. However, the President is authorized to see everything. There is no document where an underling can say, “Mr. President, you aren’t cleared for this information, so I have the legal right to not give it to you.” He might say, “Mr. President, there’s no reason for you to know the name of our mole in the Kremlin, so I won’t give it to you. You chose me to be the head of the CIA, and if you disagree with my judgement then you need to find a new CIA director.” Or he might say, “Sure thing, let me get back to you as soon as I collate the the data and decrypt the thing, and get the other thing, and it’s gonna take a few weeks, and oh look, squirrel!” Or he might lie. But he isn’t going to tell the President that the President can’t be told certain secrets. And it certainly isn’t the case that the head of the CIA has a list of the names of all our spies in a spreadsheet on his laptop. Such a list does not exist. Sure, there are people who know the names and such a list could be generated by going to every CIA field office and going to each controller and collecting the names of every agent they have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-any-government-activities-so-secret-that-even-the-president-doesnt-know-about-them/582319.md?page=2)